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Is bingeing in the eye of the beholder?

30th October 2009

Is bingeing in the eye of the beholder?

posted in Binge Eating Disorder, Bulimia, Race Issues, Rachel |

Matthew Tiemeyer, the about.com Guide to eating disorders, poses an interesting question about the definition of binge eating disorder and how it’s diagnosed. He writes:

Here’s something I hadn’t thought about before. The definition of binge-eating disorder (BED) says that binges involve eating more food than most people would expect you to eat in a relatively short time. So what if all of the people in your world don’t find your eating out of the ordinary?

Another way of asking this question: Could the definition of BED be culturally-dependent? A blurb about a recent study suggests that black women meet BED criteria less often than white women. One of the project’s researchers says, “These (black) women could be binge eating, but they may have less anxiety and distress surrounding their eating habits, so they don’t recognize it as an issue.”

So I have to ask: If there’s no distress, is it really binge eating? Is it really an issue?

It’s irksome to find that the primary concern listed in the aforelinked blurb isn’t for the mental health or emotional wellbeing of women who may have binge eating disorder, but rather for the fact that OMG! they’re getting fatter! As for Tiemeyer’s question… what are your thoughts?

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There are currently 54 responses to “Is bingeing in the eye of the beholder?”

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1 On October 30th, 2009, lilacsigil said:
If there’s no distress, it’s not binge eating. It’s not a disorder. “Too much” is totally subjective.

I am working on my binge eating disorder (and had a bad day today) but I can tell the difference between, say, eating plenty while out to dinner, and binge eating. Binge eating is uncontrollable (not uncontrolled), temporary, and I eat things I don’t want or like. It’s distressing and panic-ridden. When I’m not binge-eating, I eat foods I like (which is a pretty wide range), enjoy them and eat them more slowly and enjoyably.

There is, for me, a link between overeating and binge eating, in that even when I’m eating normally, I don’t always know when I’m full, then feel uncomfortable. But that’s an effect of the disorder, not disordered eating in itself.

posted on October 30th, 2009 at 7:31 am
2 On October 30th, 2009, Frankincensy said:
He makes a really good point, though I have to admit I bridled at “we can try to convince these women they have a problem”. If the definition is culturally dependent, it doesn’t seem right to pathologise women’s eating habits simply because they don’t fit the (white-identified) norm.

Looking at eating habits in context sounds more sensible than applying arbitrary rules about what is and isn’t bingeing, though that might pose a risk of overlooking detrimental eating habits because they’re “normal” in context (for instance, and I apologise for the cliche, a 17-year-old model may have a restrictive ED yet not stand out from her peers in terms of how little she’s eating). An eating pattern that does not cause psychological distress may still be causing physical harm, though I’m not sure whether that would still count as an eating disorder.

posted on October 30th, 2009 at 7:33 am
3 On October 30th, 2009, E said:
Usually subjective stress and interference with normal functioning are two key features in a psychological disorder, so I’d say she’s right in thinking that its not an issue. Its kind of like when they had homosexuality in the DSM for awhile, until they realized that one of the main reasons subjective stress was being caused was because they were declaring in pathological. Here, as she indicates, there isn’t even any distress. Actually I just looked it up and the diagnostic criteria requires “marked distress.” It will be interesting to see how the DSM-V handles the possible cultural differences. My thought is that they probably won’t get into it, though its definitely an intriguing idea.

Here’s to hoping that the self-flagellant attitude of white women doesn’t infiltrate those other cultures–sadly its possible that this whole post may be obsolete in a few years because those cultural differences no longer exist.

posted on October 30th, 2009 at 7:37 am
4 On October 30th, 2009, Meowser said:
I don’t know. It seems to me that if you’re really bingeing (regularly, not just eating a bunch of food on Thanksgiving or something like that), you will have some physical distress, not just mental distress (which could easily be chalked up to guilt — how many of us have convinced ourselves in the past that we were “binge eaters” because we ate ice cream even though we “shouldn’t”?).

Bingeing is not just enjoying some brownies and ice cream; it’s inhaling ALL the brownies and ALL the ice cream as fast as you can so you can get to the whole pizza and the bags of cookies and whatever else you’re bingeing on, and stuff it all in before you can stop to think, much less taste any of it. It’s the opposite of actually enjoying food, really. And there’s an ugly racist element to this (presumably white)researcher’s theorizing that these black women can’t possibly know what they’re doing to themselves and must be lying about how much they eat.

posted on October 30th, 2009 at 7:55 am
5 On October 30th, 2009, lilacsigil said:
@meowser – exactly. Someone who equates “binge eating” with “eating a satisfying amount of food that is more than the researcher thinks appropriate” has no understanding of binge eating.

posted on October 30th, 2009 at 8:02 am
6 On October 30th, 2009, Bronwyn said:
“Someone who equates “binge eating” with “eating a satisfying amount of food that is more than the researcher thinks appropriate” has no understanding of binge eating.”

This. And even if it really is a case of actual overeating, overeating does not automatically binge eating disorder, even when it is being done regularly. I don’t think there’s one definition of BED since bingeing really is relative to everyone, but what seems so hard for a lot of people to understand is that with ED the intent DOES matter, and it matters a lot.

Though I will allow the point that sometimes those with ED (of any type, really) might not be aware of their disorder if they are in an environment where it seems normal, but the language seems awfully.. icky.

posted on October 30th, 2009 at 8:30 am
7 On October 30th, 2009, BigLiberty said:
I have to echo the other comments: when I read this, I thought that there are some people out there who think eating more than 20 WW points a day is “overeating.” Like binging on coughdrops, for instance.

If I understand correctly, a true eating disorder is rooted in a psychological disorder that has nothing to do with over- or under-eating per se. The over- or under-eating is a symptom, an expression of the larger disorder.

We live in an era where the amount of food one eats is heavily moralized. That poses a difficulty to doing research on eating disorders, since there is a likely element of moral bias in the way a researcher frames the problem or the conclusions. For instance, a researcher may shift the focus of a study to the amount of food the participants eat rather than their state of mind while (or before, or after) eating, and attempt to draw conclusions based on correlations between amount of food and, say, demographics. To me, this is lazy and biased research which fails because it doesn’t even frame the question correctly, in that the initial subject definitions (conflating EDs with amount of food rather than state of mind) are fallacious.

To answer the larger point, I agree that it’s disturbing the concern for defining EDs is rooted in the concern that women are getting larger. It’s a symptom that the moral panic with its obesity folkdevil has saturated the medical research community and those who report on and discuss medical research. I forget to whom it is attributed (perhaps de Tocqueville?), but deviant groups (or entire populations, as was his argument) can become or remain oppressed through a long-term misunderstanding of truth. In other words, a “doublespeak” of sorts can take root and people can operate under mistruths for a very long time, as long as countering those mistruths is socially unacceptable to a certain degree (prime example: the Dark Ages). That is, I believe, what we are seeing at work here.

Thanks for the great post, Rachel.

posted on October 30th, 2009 at 9:08 am
8 On October 30th, 2009, Lu said:
I think the term binge-eating is culturally biased. It really depends on your crowd. I think that what needs to be evaluated is not so much the amount of food, but the attitude with which it is ingested.

posted on October 30th, 2009 at 9:28 am
9 On October 30th, 2009, Rachel said:

I have to echo the other comments: when I read this, I thought that there are some people out there who think eating more than 20 WW points a day is “overeating.” Like binging on coughdrops, for instance.

Yes. During my eating disorder, I saw a shrink who diagnosed me as bulimic after asking me how often I binged and how I felt during these binges. The only problem was that I considered anything above 500 calories a day to be a “binge.”

posted on October 30th, 2009 at 9:30 am
10 On October 30th, 2009, Samantha C said:
I think I may have had binge eating disorder as a teen. I distinctly remember how any time I had full access to the pantry, when my parents weren’t home, I’d stuff my face full of everything I wasn’t allowed to have otherwise. I stole cookies and shoved them into my mouth without even tasting them, and it certainly felt uncontrolable at the time. It’s lessened considerably since i’ve gotten to college, and been in charge of my own food.

But really, all this comment is doing is an excuse for me to complain about my mother. When she went on weight watchers last year, she referred to eating a container of cherry tomatoes as a “binge”. yeah, mom, thanks for unconsciously belittling that whole complex I used to get into so much trouble for.

posted on October 30th, 2009 at 9:42 am
11 On October 30th, 2009, BigLiberty said:
Oh goodness, “Dark Ages” -> “Middle Ages.” Sorry, talk about over-abstraction of human history lately!

posted on October 30th, 2009 at 9:50 am
12 On October 30th, 2009, Fantine said:
I remember being in a weight loss program at age twelve, and going through a chapter in the little textbook about binge eating. We did this exercise where we ate a slice of apple as quickly as possible, and then ate another slice slowly, savoring it. We were asked how often we binge, big binges or little binges, by ourselves or with others. There was no option for people who did not binge. We were all fat, so we must all be binging, right?

For years I thought I must be binging–as Rachel said, anything over 500 calories a day must be a binge (although I actually allowed myself 800). I would alternately starve and then eat regularly for a few days, until I got disgusted with myself and started starving again. It took me years to realize that what I was doing was NOT binging.

posted on October 30th, 2009 at 9:55 am
13 On October 30th, 2009, Bree said:
A major problem is that many people use the term binge to describe eating something that is considered morally bad, even if the amount is small. You read articles on celebrities and time after time they talk about how they allow themselves to binge on three chocolate chip cookies a week. The focus on how much food and what kind of food is eaten during the binge hinders steps to recognizing and treating the disorder.

posted on October 30th, 2009 at 10:15 am
14 On October 30th, 2009, Miriam Heddy said:
Given that there’s a prohibition against (white?) women eating in public, and given that there’s an area of study devoted to looking at the way that (white?) women, in public, regularly engage in competitive non-eating (doing things like looking at what others are buying in order to gauge what they can/are allowed/should purchase), it’s not surprising that (white?) women have a complicated relationship to food eaten in private.

(I’m putting white in parenthesis and with the question mark because I’m not sure how thorough these studies have been about looking at race or SES).

Trying to define something like Binging can’t happen without an awareness of the public/private divide for women and food, and what’s considered “normal” eating.

To what extent is binging a response to public repression of the female appetite? What if a woman who is on a constant diet experiences distress over eating too much when she eats enough to survive? (Dieting communities often try to redefine fullness in terms that suggest “full” is a bad thin or that fullness should be achieved by eating lots of lettuce or drinking lots of water–both things that make fullness feel *different* than, say, the fullness of eating proteins or carbohydrates). Is a woman binging if she eats “like a man”?

Of *course* these questions have to be answered with an awareness of culture. Psychology doesn’t exist outside of it.

posted on October 30th, 2009 at 10:18 am
15 On October 30th, 2009, Rachel said:

I plan to elaborate more on this in a future post, but I am extremely disturbed by the increasing trend in the eating disorders field to assume that simply because one is fat that they must have some degree of an eating disorder. If you look at some of the medical volumes and journals on eating disorders, obesity is now included in the same category as anorexia and bulimia.

posted on October 30th, 2009 at 10:57 am
16 On October 30th, 2009, Twistie said:
” If you look at some of the medical volumes and journals on eating disorders, obesity is now included in the same category as anorexia and bulimia.”

Wow. I have an eating disorder and I didn’t even know it. I’m fat, therefore I binge?

posted on October 30th, 2009 at 11:23 am
17 On October 30th, 2009, hsofia said:
Binge eating is not something that I, as an AA woman, have given much though to. There have been times when I felt I’d binged, but not to the point where I ate everything in my house – more like I ate a whole pint of ice cream + a box of donut holes. The point isn’t how much I ate, but how out of control I felt. Certainly that’s not as much food as others might eat in a binge, and I also didn’t feel guilty or out of control for more than a few hours. I have to say that I have never seen anyone but white girls and women depicted as having disordered eating or EDs, so I would never have thought of myself as having some type of medical problem, just a momentary lapse of judgment.

posted on October 30th, 2009 at 11:43 am
18 On October 30th, 2009, Kayla said:
I think the key here is the difference between bingeing and overeating. If people don’t have anxiety over the amount they are eating because it seems normal to them, then that isn’t bingeing. It seems like the criteria for bingeing is very loose though, I agree. More than who thinks you should eat in a 2-hour period? I never fit the criteria for bulimia because I didn’t have “objective” binges but I sure had times where I would eat in an out of control way, not really tasting the food or caring what I was eating. My therapist told me that they were subjective binges because I felt they were binges. Some of my snacks were actually bigger than what I would consider a binge calorie-wise, but they were healthy because I was eating out of physical hunger and enjoying the food.

So, no, I don’t think one culture can go up to another and say “you have BED” because it’s not an eating disorder unless it really causes psychological distress. However, just because you don’t have an eating disorder doesn’t mean you’re eating habits are healthy. I certainly don’t think the main concern should be “OMG! Fat!” but I personally think that part of health is being able to maintain a healthy weight (for you, not society).

posted on October 30th, 2009 at 12:22 pm
19 On October 30th, 2009, Jae said:
If you look at some of the medical volumes and journals on eating disorders, obesity is now included in the same category as anorexia and bulimia.

Rachel, I’m getting my Master’s right now in counseling and in a recent chapter on behavioral therapy, one of the “conditions” the authors said behavioral therapy helped with was obesity. Not any kind of eating disorder –just obesity. It was all I could do not to fling my book in rage.

posted on October 30th, 2009 at 2:36 pm
20 On October 30th, 2009, Bethface said:
Yesterday I spent the day making 50 Halloween cupcakes for my sons school and was really enjoying myself. I baked them and then sat down for the fun part. All the decorating. I had no desire to eat any of them, just enjoying the fun of it all.

About mid-afternoon my friend came over and wanted to help with the decorating. She started immediately into how many calories the cupcakes were, how she has lost 5 lbs that week, and all about how she had been reading about weight and infertility. Didn’t I know that if I lost weight it would improve my chances of getting pregnant. When she finally left I walked straight to those cupcakes and ate two of them.

Now some people might not think that was binge eating because I didn’t eat all 50 of the cupcakes but I would disagree. I ate those cupcakes, not because I wanted them or that they even tasted good but because I felt better after eating them. It was the lack of control involved with eating those cupcakes not the amount.

posted on October 30th, 2009 at 2:41 pm
21 On October 30th, 2009, Rachel said:

@Jae: Exactly. What’s even more frustrating is that the clinical definition of obesity does not in itself infer any certain behavior(s); it’s just a label given to those whose body weight falls above some predetermined value of “average.” On the other hand, anorexia and bulimia DO infer specific behavioral patterns. In fact, the strict medical definition used in the DSM-IV requires two binge-eating episodes a week for at least three months to make a bulimia diagnosis. Lumping obesity in with legitimate eating disorders is nothing short of size-stereotyping in the similar sense in which we stereotype gays or minorities or women or poor people.

posted on October 30th, 2009 at 3:26 pm
22 On October 30th, 2009, Melissa said:
That’s a good question.
I definitely think there’s a big difference between bingeing and overeating, in the sense that bingeing involves a very emotional base and it’s done very unconsciously, in the sense that it’s being driven by an unconscious emotional need that’s not been acknowledged consciously.
Everyone over eats at times and that doesn’t mean they have binge eating disorder, it might just mean at that time the food tasted really good and they decided to have a little extra. It wasn’t emotional and not something they have great guilt about, because it doesn’t come from the same feelings and place as binge eating.

I find it appalling that obesity is being claimed as an eating disorder- especially when the reasons for “obesity” are many and complex and not just linked to eating too much or having a disorder mentally with food. They need to leave body size out of eating disorders and focus on what psychology is suppose to and that’s mental health and behavior.
The fact that some obesity is genetic, or bio chemical, hormonal, needs to be acknowledged rather than lumping it all into one big pile of Eating Disorder.

posted on October 30th, 2009 at 4:17 pm
23 On October 30th, 2009, jaed said:
They need to leave body size out of eating disorders

This also happens on the other end of the scale, where the diagnosis of anorexia nervosa is refused because the person’s BMI isn’t below the threshold, even though all other symptoms and the clinical pattern are present. In one case it results in inappropriate psychiatrization of body shape, in the other it results in refusal to treat, and either way it’s distorting seriously the use of these disorders in diagnosis.

posted on October 30th, 2009 at 5:51 pm
24 On October 30th, 2009, JennyRose said:
It is hard to come up with a clear line if one even exists but at the extreme ends it is pretty easy to see.

I was bulimic for many years. I would go home and eat huge amounts of food; pasta, cookies, cake etc. I would feel stuffed and then I would get a 2nd wind and eat more and more. Then I would throw it all up. I might do that twice more or I might take a shower and go to bed.

I can still binge but nothing like that. I have been in recovery for many years and I hardly ever binge. I may eat past full or eat when I am not hungry but it is never like the past.

Obesity is not an ED. It is not even a symptom of an ED. I also find it upsetting when a fat woman is laughed at and told she cannot possibly have an ED because of her weight. Then they say I guess you beat anorexia. HAR HAR – stupid and not funny.

You can not tell if a person has an ED just by looking at them.

posted on October 30th, 2009 at 7:30 pm
25 On October 30th, 2009, Scattered Marbles said:
I think this is probably the reason why so many of my family, friends, and even people I just meet jump to the conclusion that I “need to be fixed” with the thought that because I am fat that must mean I am broken in some emotional, or mental way which drives me crazy. It is just now that I am coming to the place where I can say “Hey wait a minute I am not broken, I do not need to be ‘fixed’, and I certainly don’t need your amateur psychology!”

What Fantine said really hit it right on for me, because for so long I was just given the binge eater label, which made ANY eating a huge guilt induced experience for me. Now that I have the strength to deny all the stupid labels other people have stuck on me I realize that yes I am fat, but no I am not a binge eater they do not go hand in hand and a person who is fat who also eats does not = Binge. There is that idea that all fat people must have a binge eating disorder and it is really not helpful to make plain normal eating a disorder just because a person might be fat. That in my experience has cause a whole lot of major issues for me.

posted on October 30th, 2009 at 9:03 pm
26 On October 31st, 2009, classicplussizewoman said:
I always thought of binge eating as extreme concentrated stuffing in a very short period of time. Kind of like an alcoholic who will drink so much as to get sloppy falling down drunk.

On the other hand there are those with a serious drinking problem who stay lucid and are high functioning. they might drink all day but they want to enjoy the flavor of their poison.

That would describe me and many other black women I know. We can indeed eat a whole pie and a pint of ice cream. but one slice at a time. we just keep going back for another “hit” Same amount of calories but slow and steady.

posted on October 31st, 2009 at 1:05 am
27 On October 31st, 2009, Jackie said:
“I think this is probably the reason why so many of my family, friends, and even people I just meet jump to the conclusion that I “need to be fixed” with the thought that because I am fat that must mean I am broken in some emotional, or mental way which drives me crazy. It is just now that I am coming to the place where I can say “Hey wait a minute I am not broken, I do not need to be ‘fixed’, and I certainly don’t need your amateur psychology!” – Scattered Marbles

I hate this, and while it does have to do with being fat, it also has to do with any behavior that is deemed “unwomanly” in our society.

Spend too much time on the PC, something must be horribly wrong with you. Not having an interest in fluff, like what’s in fashion. Oh, then something must be wrong, doubly so if your fat and then it’s your fault for not being able to find clothing, because you should be able to be thin.

I don’t know, I’m not coming up with many good examples here. It just bugs me to no end, that while society is pretty accepting of whatever men are doing, if a woman isn’t fixated on looking pretty we still think something is seriously wrong about them.

*The clothing thing probably is, cause they’ve been advertising that horrible ad for Bariatric surgery again, the one where they use something to squeeze the part above the stomach closer. I asked my mom, “Do they really think someone is going to buy their friend a Bariatric surgery for the holidays, or what?”

posted on October 31st, 2009 at 11:16 pm
28 On November 1st, 2009, Samantha said:
There are also people who eat a small or normal amount of food & think they’ve binged. It’s still considered a binge because of the thoughts & feelings you have along with it.
If you’re using it fill an emotional void rather than your hunger cues. Rather or not it’s considered “much more than is normally eaten under similar circumstances” it is still a binge.

posted on November 1st, 2009 at 5:20 pm
29 On November 2nd, 2009, Annie said:
I am in therapy for (among other things) BED. I know when I’m bingeing, and I think that on some level everyone (who binges) knows when they’re bingeing.

BUT I think that after years of doing it, it can become such a pattern, especially if it’s socially accepted or even encouraged, that the person doing it is no longer overtly aware of it happening.

For instance, my childhood friend binge eats. She is a very short woman who is drastically overweight due, in part, to extreme bingeing. Her mother encouraged her to eat when she was sad or to celebrate with massive quantities of food all while she was growing up. She’s a type I diabetic with an insulin pump, and she still binges on muffins, cookies, and ice cream when she gets anxious or stressed. She’s come to visit me before and polished off entire containers of my ice cream or cookies in the night (which leaves me feeling both sympathetic and annoyed simultaneously), admitting only that she had “a little snack”. We do movie nights sometimes, and I often buy large quantities of junk food that I intend to stretch out over a week or even two, but she will consume in one sitting — easily five or six times as much as I do, and (while I am learning to not binge) I have a health appetite.

She will say with extreme conviction that she does not eat more than a single serving at a time, and that her doctor’s just aren’t understanding of her. I don’t judge her (how could I?), but I do think that she definitely regularly binges without even consciously realizing it. It’s not a cultural thing or a “OMG she’s gaining weight!” thing. She consumes massive amounts of food (especially carbs, which are bad for her diabetes) to the point where she puts herself in danger physically. She binges without realizing it’s bingeing and unhealthy or abnormal behavior.

posted on November 2nd, 2009 at 2:37 am
30 On November 2nd, 2009, Faith said:
Thank you Rachel for bringing up this issue. I had to deal with this early on in my recovery. I would eat and throw up normal-ish sized meals. I never “drive-thru hopped” or ate an entire box of donuts but sometimes a regular sized meal felt like a binge and so I had to get rid of it or when I was restricting carbs, a couple of crackers would be a binge. I didn’t call myself bulimic for many years because of that. It is, indeed in the eye of the beholder. My feeling is that if I feel like I’m out of control, it’s a binge regardless of the amount of food or calories.

posted on November 2nd, 2009 at 12:28 pm
31 On November 2nd, 2009, Rachel said:

@Faith: An University of Iowa professor is trying to make the case for purging disorder in which sufferers eat normal or even small amounts of food and then purge, often by vomiting. That seems to fit more with what I experienced and maybe you, too.

posted on November 2nd, 2009 at 12:32 pm
32 On November 2nd, 2009, Blimp said:
Binge eating disorder used to be called “gluttony”, although gluttony may also refer to other kinds of wanton consumption, such as alcoholism. I define it as routinely eating for the sake of the sensation, with complete disregard for the effect on one’s health and strength, and complete disregard for the welfare and rights of others. Note that this is how most children behave until they learn how to eat, and if they are served unlimited quantities of their favorite foods, most will suffer nutritional deficiency syndromes.

posted on November 2nd, 2009 at 1:15 pm
33 On November 2nd, 2009, Ashley said:
@rachel, that’s about what I did. I considered myself a borderline anorexic and wound up making myself vomit if I ate more than 1200 calories.

posted on November 2nd, 2009 at 1:15 pm
34 On November 2nd, 2009, Heidi said:
“On the other hand there are those with a serious drinking problem who stay lucid and are high functioning. they might drink all day but they want to enjoy the flavor of their poison.

That would describe me and many other black women I know. We can indeed eat a whole pie and a pint of ice cream. but one slice at a time. we just keep going back for another “hit” Same amount of calories but slow and steady.” – classicplussizewoman

This is how I “binge,” if you want to call it that. I keep going back, keep picking and picking. Not all in one go but slowly, over the course of hours/days. It is a response to emotional hunger rather than physical hunger and I don’t necessarily enjoy the food so much as I feel the desperate, clawing need to consume it. If someone were hungry and eating that much (there are people who have crazy metabolisms who do eat that much because they are feeling physical hunger), that to me wouldn’t be an issue. It’s because it is that *need* rather than physical hunger that, to me, means that it’s binge-eating.

It took me a long time to realize that what I was doing was eating in a disordered way (whether or not it classifies as a “true” ED) instead of just being “lazy” or out of control.

posted on November 2nd, 2009 at 1:45 pm
35 On November 2nd, 2009, hsofia said:
classicplussizewoman – yes! That is what I would do: one slice at a time. One bowl at a time. Just keep going back for more until it’s all gone. Once I found myself thinking that I had to eat the whole carton of ice cream (one bowl at a time) because if I didn’t eat it now, it would still be there and I’d have to eat it later. !!! That makes no sense at the face of it, but what I really meant was that so long as it was in the freezer I’d be feeling compelled to eat it. If I ate it all up now, it would no longer be there to tempt me.

blimp: ” Note that this is how most children behave until they learn how to eat, and if they are served unlimited quantities of their favorite foods, most will suffer nutritional deficiency syndromes.” Can you point to any studies or medical articles that support this?

posted on November 2nd, 2009 at 2:01 pm
36 On November 2nd, 2009, Kimberley O. said:
Ummmm, Blimp?

What’s your point, exactly? Because you seem to be engaging in a very different conversation than the rest of us here.

But hey, good to see that Puritan culture is still thriving out there somewhere – do you get those scratchy woolen dresses from the internet, or weave then yourself?

posted on November 2nd, 2009 at 2:11 pm
37 On November 2nd, 2009, viajera said:
“I am extremely disturbed by the increasing trend in the eating disorders field to assume that simply because one is fat that they must have some degree of an eating disorder.”

Exactly – this, along with the “calories in, calories out” assumption, drives me nuts! I’m obese, and moreover I haven’t found my “set point” (if it even exists – none of my family members seem to have one) yet. I consistently gain 10-20 pounds every fall/winter then lose most (but not all) of it each summer (my summer work involves hours of intense exercise daily), leading to a net increase of ~30 pounds over the past 5 years.

I know that many of my friends and colleagues assume I must binge, or at least consume large quantities of unhealthy food. Several friends have made comments along the lines of “Really? Does that fill you up/Is that all you eat?” when seeing my (daily) lunchtime salad, or expressed surprise when I mention jogging regularly. I’ve literally been called a liar by doctors and others when I explain that I average 1300-1800 calories (whole grain, lots of veggies, low fat, the works) a day and exercise regularly, and to me a “binge” is a (rare) day where I eat 2000-2500 calories! Dude, if it was really “calories in, calories out” I’d be normal or even underweight – yet people assume I’m a lazy binge-eater. I wish people could see we’re not all the same.

posted on November 2nd, 2009 at 3:05 pm
38 On November 2nd, 2009, Vixen said:
Heidi said, “It is a response to emotional hunger rather than physical hunger and I [u]don’t necessarily enjoy the food so much as I feel the desperate, clawing need to consume it.[/u] ”

That pretty much sums up my definition of a binge.

posted on November 2nd, 2009 at 4:21 pm
39 On November 2nd, 2009, Vixen said:
Whoops, ignore the failed formatting attempt.

posted on November 2nd, 2009 at 4:22 pm
40 On November 2nd, 2009, Rachel said:

@Blimp: You seem to have taken a rather harsh stance on binge eating disorder and those who suffer from it. I wouldn’t say that people with BED show a “disregard” for their health or the welfare of others or the planet; rather they suffer from an inability to place concerns for those things above the need to binge. Binge eating disorder is a psychological illness, not a character flaw.

posted on November 2nd, 2009 at 4:29 pm
41 On November 2nd, 2009, classicplussizewoman said:
I define it as routinely eating for the sake of the sensation, with complete disregard for the effect on one’s health and strength,

@ Blimp Please expain:

“and complete disregard for the welfare and rights of others.”

posted on November 2nd, 2009 at 11:02 pm
42 On November 3rd, 2009, Alex said:
I don’t think that body size should be the primary (or even secondary) indicator of an eating disorder in the medical establishment. In fact, I find this very discriminatory. It is clearly the behavioral pattern that warrants the diagnosis.

But I do think body size is often an indicator. For instance, I don’t know many 80-90 pound (average height) women (not victims of a degenerative disease of some kind) who are not eating disordered. Granted, this should not be a call for judgment, it’s just an observation.

posted on November 3rd, 2009 at 3:09 pm
43 On November 3rd, 2009, Alex said:
I guess I say the above mostly in disgust at our culture’s coddling of the underweight standard of beauty.

No way models are too skinny! They’re genetically predisposed to be forty pounds underweight! Um, really?

Regardless, the focus should be on establishing and encouraging healthy relationships with food, bodies, and exercise, no matter what weight.

posted on November 3rd, 2009 at 3:12 pm
44 On November 3rd, 2009, Blimp said:
On November 2nd, 2009, Heidi said:

“On the other hand there are those with a serious drinking problem who stay lucid and are high functioning. they might drink all day but they want to enjoy the flavor of their poison.” (quoting classicplussizewoman)

Well, that’s an alcoholic, and that’s how many alcoholics think of themselves, i.e., they lie to themselves, that they are “high functioning”. High, indeed!

Food gluttony is rarely a general over-consumption of all kinds of food, but a gross overconsumption of one or a few types of food, usually at the expense of not consuming enough of other foods needed for proper nutrition, because gluttony is a failure to let reason override basic animal instincts with regard to the pleasurable sensations provided by certain consumables. Many foods, such as spinach, do not provide much of a pleasurable sensation, yet are beneficial to eat, so we acquire a taste for such items, but over-consumption of spinach is extremely rare.

Alcoholics can be emaciated for the simple reason that their continual drunkenness prevents them from digesting and absorbing sufficient protein or calories, because they vomit frequently, they have cirrhosis of the liver, their teeth are gone, and their whole digestive tract is FUBAR! The same is true of food gluttons, when they routinely make themselves sick by their childish, undisciplined manner of eating.

As for the welfare and rights of others, in today’s world, where nearly 1 in 6 are actually starving right now and many more have starved or are threatened with starvation, it really is outrageous to waste good food. A child whose parents let him raid the cookie jar with impunity, or always serve him whatever food or beverage he wants, when he wants it, is a spoiled child! Parents who are not filthy stinking rich cannot run their households that way. So, as moral adults, we should not run ourselves that way.

As I’ve mentioned earlier, the real Puritan ethos is the idea that the future of humanity is in our hands, and the pursuit of happiness consists of striving to improve that future, not for ourselves, but for all humanity. It is the philosophy and theology of the German Gottfried Wilhelm Leibniz, translated into English. It does not mean that cookies and ice cream, or even alcohol, are forbidden, or that being fat is a crime. If eating such things improves our morale, it clearly was not wasted. And if your “bingeing” isn’t preventing you from pursuing happiness as Leibniz defined it, then it isn’t bingeing or gluttony at all.

posted on November 3rd, 2009 at 6:13 pm
45 On November 4th, 2009, classicplussizewoman said:
—————-
SPINACH CRAB DIP
—————-

1 1/2 packages Knorr vegetable soup
1 1/16 cups (250 ml) light sour cream
7/8 cup (125 ml) light cream cheese
1/2 cup (125 ml) Miracle Whip
1/4 tsp garlic powder
2 tbsp liquid honey
1 tbsp lemon juice
3/4 pound (330 g) shredded real or imitation crab meat
1/2 cup chopped green onions
1 small can of water chestnuts
2 packages frozen chopped spinach
assorted crackers or bread

Mix first 7 ingredients together until smooth.

Add crab meat, chopped green onions, and chopped water
chestnuts.

Cook frozen spinach with salt to taste. Drain well.

Mix all ingredients together.

Refrigerate 3 hours before serving with bread or crackers.

posted on November 4th, 2009 at 3:42 am
46 On November 4th, 2009, Lyn said:
Binge Eating Disorder is painful. It is emotionally distressing. If a person eats a lot because they feel like it or it tastes good and they are happy with what they are doing, it is not a DISORDER imo. BED involves some level of distress. It involves emotional upset, feeling out of control, not being able to stop one’s behavior. It has nothing to do with your WEIGHT except that it might increase it. It is very similar to a drunk who can’t stop at one drink. I knew plenty of girls in college who binged on cookies or pizza, then threw up. They were thin. They still had an eating disorder. You cannot tell someone’s ED by their body size, nor can you assume a heavy person HAS an eating disorder, because often, they don’t.

posted on November 4th, 2009 at 3:10 pm
47 On November 4th, 2009, classicplussizewoman said:
@ Lyn
“Binge Eating Disorder is painful. It is emotionally distressing. If a person eats a lot because they feel like it or it tastes good and they are happy with what they are doing, it is not a DISORDER imo. BED involves some level of distress. It involves emotional upset, feeling out of control, not being able to stop one’s behavior.”

NOW that makes so much sense to me, compulsive overeating not really enjoying it, and feeling guilt afterward. IS BED

but overeating and enjoying every morsel even though you know that there’s a price IS NOT BED.

posted on November 4th, 2009 at 3:39 pm
48 On November 4th, 2009, lass21hb said:
So – I an exercise specialist and I work daily with individuals (with all fitness levels, goals, and disabilities) and exercise programs (healthy lifestyle changes).

I first want to address the initial question of “if there is no distress is it binge eating?” I disagree up to this point- first of all then we can really say ignorance is bliss – if you do not know you are speeding then you are not speeding???? No. So education is key to that problem.

With that being said, I do feel we define these disorders carefully. All too often our society gets caught up in the SYMPTOMS and not the WHY’S. Although symptoms are part of defining such disorders they should not overshadowing the real problem. Otherwise we cannot determine the appropriate long-term solution.

And obviously, depending on the individual (past experiences, etc) their perception on anything they hear and/or read is going to be slightly different from person to person. Therefore have more objective measurements the better – otherwise anyone who is fat has an eating disorder, which I do disagree with completely.

However, many people I come across who are over weight or obese have some disordered eating at least. Meaning they eat not because of hunger but because of stress, boredom, anger, sadness, etc. This is a problem and our society does not seem to want to address the real problems of obesity in this country. Now I do not believe everyone should be a size 2; but I meet NO obese (usually 50 plus pounds overweight) individuals who are healthy and happy.

I am glad this questions was brought up and I look forward to reading more about this topic.
Hannah

posted on November 4th, 2009 at 4:32 pm
49 On November 4th, 2009, lass21hb said:
Apologies for the type errors – in a hurry

posted on November 4th, 2009 at 4:35 pm
50 On November 4th, 2009, Faith said:
hannah – I think the original author was discussing binge eating as it relates to binge eating disorder not just binge eating. Some people who are anorexic or have symptoms of anorexia or bulimia believe that a saltine cracker is a binge. That is certainly in the eye of the beholder, is it not? Second. You may not agree with the way someone eats (too much, not the “right” foods) but that’s subjective too.

It’s like the definition of promiscuous. Inherently judgmental.

posted on November 4th, 2009 at 5:06 pm
51 On November 5th, 2009, lass21hb said:
@ Faith – Interesting point – but then you are raising the question of “if there IS distress with so called binge eating – which obviously as you state most would say no, then do they have “binge eating disorder”? Now- if we discuss the group on one end [no distress] then we should discuss the group with a lot of distress (i.e. over eating on a saltine cracker). And as I stated we need more objective measurements (although perceptions even in that matter will influence some – which is why we have double blind studies etc.).

And when I read the article/question I got the impression that we were discussing how the definition of binge eating disorder is perceived in our society and relates to all of us and our eating habits based on distress vs. no distress. Once the question of black women’s eating habits was brought into the topic I “perceived” that we were not only discussing those with eating disorders; but all of us who eat. [Again all of this in relation to BED's definition and measurements.]

And although the idea that the woman who is anorexic perceives a saltine cracker as binge eating does not mean that it is in the eyes of the beholder. As most of us have learned that we cannot just “self diagnose”. We need to be more objectively (which is what is in question) looked at by medical professionals which means we really do not necessarily determine our diagnosis we are at the mercy to some extent to our medical/health professionals and their “perceptions”. Correct?

And unfortunately we are never going to get away from other people’s different perceptions no matter how objective we try to get with our measurements. And This is not just about whether I or other people agree or disagree with what someone does with their daily diet [i.e. those with BED]; but how it is either negatively or positively affecting them – which is why most of us seek help is to have someone else make certain decisions for us when we are not making the best decisions for ourselves.

Lastly – in regards to promiscuous – well yes there is always room for some subjectiveness to it; but since we live in a democracy – there is a line in which most (majority) would agree what is promiscuous and what is not. Therefore setting the standards regardless of there being some subjectiveness to the matter.

Thanks for the great comment and question….
Hannah

posted on November 5th, 2009 at 4:07 pm
52 On November 5th, 2009, Faith said:
As most of us have learned that we cannot just “self diagnose”. We need to be more objectively (which is what is in question) looked at by medical professionals which means we really do not necessarily determine our diagnosis we are at the mercy to some extent to our medical/health professionals and their “perceptions”.

As with most psychiatric illnesses, this is correct. We are at the mercy of our mental health professionals because the objective measurements are not always accurate. What of the non-anorexic who is over an 18 bmi but cannot get coverage because her BMI is an 18.5 or she still menstruates. What of the bulimic who has, thanks to therapy stopped purging and therefore her parity diagnosis is cancelled?

As for double blind studies, those are for drugs and not clinical diagnoses. There is a real inequity in that, we are at the mercy of our providers and unfortunately some providers are so narrow minded that the distress of a binge eater, no matter how great their distress is, will not treat that person with a psychiatric illness (but rather a problem with food and laziness) until she gets to a place where her distress is so great that she is suicidal. Unfortunately, this is too often the case.

Also, I disagree completely that a majority would agree on what promiscuity is and that has absolutely nothing to do with the political structure under which we live. I think the idea of setting standards so that we all have a certain moral line to stand behind is a very, very dangerous place to live whether it is regarding food, sex or any other overly moralized behavior.

posted on November 5th, 2009 at 4:40 pm
53 On November 7th, 2009, lass21hb said:
I do understand your points. And I my self have been the minority before and it is a hard place to be. So first thing I want to address is that we cannot set definitions, standards, treatments, etc. based on the 1%. Although that may seem unfair – it will not happen in today’s society. However I do think we need to continue to improve our methods in diagnosing and treating so that “margarine of error” is less and less; thus making the people who fall in the cracks is less and less. And I do think we need to make sure that we have a set plan for those who do not fall into the textbook description of the eating disorders (i.e. BED) so that those individuals have options.

Now yes – my double blind example was not the best. But it is not like we are not trying to do studies (i.e. on eating disorders) that use subjective questionnaires (anonymous) that can be put into data (numbers) that can be calculated; thus allowing us to better diagnose and treat. Again there is always room for improvement; but we are working towards our goal(s) of improving diagnosis and treatments of many different disorders, diseases, and other mental and medical issues.

Lastly – we are going to have to agree to disagree- on the promiscuity and our political structure. I do believe our society is determined by these majorities and, although I do not always agree with them, it is there. In fact that is how our court system works and how we have structure and organization in our society is because there is that “moral line” – again I may not always agree with it on every topic; but that is why we have freedom of speech, representatives, etc. so that we improve our society, standards, and that “moral line” you call it. I do not think this is dangerous – it would only be dangerous if we did not have the freedoms we have today.

It has been nice debating and you brought up some great points.
Thanks
Hannah

posted on November 7th, 2009 at 1:12 pm
54 On November 22nd, 2009, scattered marbles said:
blimp: ” Note that this is how most children behave until they learn how to eat, and if they are served unlimited quantities of their favorite foods, most will suffer nutritional deficiency syndromes.” Can you point to any studies or medical articles that support this? ~hsofia

I totally agree with what Hsofia said to blimp please show some actual studies of this because honestly it is the kids who get restricted from certain foods at home, who are taught the “right way to eat”, and who are told that some food is good and some is bad are the ones who end up going crazy and binging on the stuff they aren’t allowed or have been told are bad when they have a chance because they don’t think they will ever get it again. These are the kids who often feel the need to hide when they eat “bad” food because they have already been taught to equate it with shame or immorality. You think of a newborn, is most cases they cry when they are hungry, they eat what they want or need, and then they stop. Probably cause they haven’t picked up those disordered eating habits and they don’t feel the need to binge cause they know it will come again.

I was made to go to weight watchers before the age of 7 and all of my food memories are full of shame, I had a family who would constantly watch what I was eating, make comments about it and before long I learned to start hiding it. I was never allowed a second helping, even though my sisters had total freedom in that area so I learned to take as much as I could the first time in the hopes that I wouldn’t be hungry afterward. To this day eating in front or with people is a very hard thing for me and I am working to break myself of that feeling that I have to overdo on things that I like because I might not get them again.

Taking away all those rules and restrictions and constantly replacing all the shame messages with the one that food is not good or bad it just is and learning that I can have whatever it is again later has taken away that need to overdo and I often find myself being able to only eat just as much as I want at the time, be it a little bit or a lot.

posted on November 22nd, 2009 at 5:24 am

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