‘Mrs. Clinton vs. ‘Ms’ Palin?

30th September 2008

‘Mrs. Clinton vs. ‘Ms’ Palin?

While reading this New York Times story on the precipitous decline of republican vice presidential candidate Sarah Palin in the polls, I was struck by the Times’ reference to her as Ms Palin. As I recalled, the Times always referred to Hillary Clinton as Mrs. Clinton. The Associated Press style guide is most popular amongst newspapers, but the Times has its own style and maintains a now antiquated use of honorific titles. Still, I wondered about the inconsistency, especially since the omission of one letter makes a significant difference — unlike Miss or Mrs., Ms does not presume the addressee’s marital status, which is why I, and many other feminists, prefer to use it.

I did some poking around on the Times’ website and discovered this Q & A with Phillip Corbett, deputy news editor at the Times. Here’s what he says:

Our style is to use “Ms.” unless a woman chooses to use “Mrs.” or “Miss.” That rule applies both to private individuals and to public figures.

Aside from these inquiries about “Ms.,” I’ve been surprised not to get more questions about our use of courtesy titles. After all, our continued insistence on Mr., Ms., Dr., etc., is perhaps our most obvious stylistic difference from other news organizations, which generally use bare surnames for second references to people. The Times’s style seems strange, at first, to every reporter or editor coming here from another paper…

Perhaps I’m tradition-bound, but this is one quirk of Times style that I would go to some lengths to defend. We strive for a tone that is literate, civil and serious: not fussy or old-fashioned, but also not chatty or self-consciously hip. It’s not an easy balance, and we don’t always get it right. But I think the simple use of courtesy titles — whether it’s “Mr. Bush,” “Mrs. Clinton” or “Ms. Rivera, a teacher from Queens” — injects a note of thoughtfulness and civility into our pages. Amid the daily cacophony, that seems a worthy effort.

I find it rather ironic that the avowed feminist here — Hillary Clinton — prefers the title of Mrs., while conservative Sarah Palin prefers a title made popular by the very feminists whose political gains she wants to overturn.

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1 On September 30th, 2008, the Lindsay of Babble-on said:

In my family, we do weird things like call each other by our last names. I used to be “Ms. M____”, my dad was usually just “M____”, my brother was “the young Mr. M____”, and my stepmum (who didn’t take my dad’s name) was “Ms. D____”. One time i accidentally called her “Mrs. D____”, and received quite a lecture about the differences between the two. You’d think i’d remember the explanation because of all the fuss she made, but no: in one ear, out the other.

There are a few possibilities as to why i think people might use Ms. Palin and Mrs. Clinton.

1) There is the possibility of “Ms. Clinton” being mistaken as referring to Chelsea instead of Hillary. Granted, “Ms. Palin” could be used to refer to Sarah Palin’s daughters, but none of them are legal adults just yet, so that might be a factor.

2) It might be Mrs. for Hillary and Ms. for Sarah because Hillary’s husband was in politics before she was, whereas (IIRC) Sarah’s husband isn’t in politics at all.

3) It might be personal preferences for each individual. Maybe Sarah prefers “Ms.” while Hillary prefers “Mrs.”. Granted, it’s not like we can just phone them up and ask, so that’s impossible to verify – but it is a possibility. “Ms” might be more current/correct (for any number of reasons), but maybe Hillary wants the “Mrs” to act as a reminder of her husband and his accomplishments.

posted on September 30th, 2008 at 10:25 am

2 On September 30th, 2008, MrsDrC said:

I’m a Ms. user myself.

I take the opinion that Hillary is trying to seem traditional in some small way to help her with that demographic. And the same of Palin, she’s trying to court feminisits. As if anyone is going to say “Wow, she uses the same title I do! She’s got my vote!”

I’d love to see Mrs. go bye-bye. It infuriates me to no end that a womans “availability” is spelled out with their title. *huge eye roll*

posted on September 30th, 2008 at 10:34 am

3 On September 30th, 2008, the Lindsay of Babble-on said:

I dunno, i kind of like my own Mrs, which is what i personally use. Maybe i’m totally off on my understand of things here, but isn’t feminism at least partially about giving women more choices? If we remove the Mrs, then aren’t we taking that choice away from women – how is that progress?

(I’m not being sarcastic, here. I am totally serious and not intending to be snarky. I honestly don’t understand these things sometimes, and would appreciate elaboration on these points if possible.)

posted on September 30th, 2008 at 10:40 am

4 On September 30th, 2008, Rachel said:

maybe Hillary wants the “Mrs” to act as a reminder of her husband and his accomplishments.

Maybe. I thought of that, too. Still, I remain wary, and here’s why: At the onset of the primaries, Clinton always appeared on the ballet using her middle name of Rodham. She continues to use Rodham in her role as senator. Mid-primary, she broke stride and opted instead to drop the middle name, after polls suggested it would increase her popularity amongst southern voters. I think we have to ask ourselves, why does the use of her maiden name matter to voters, especially southern voters? Keep in mind, the south has never been a bastion of feminism — the first wave feminist movement started largely in the northeast and the west. The south has historically been resistant to feminism, in part, because sexism provides a rationale for continued racism. I think Clinton opted to use Mrs. for the very same reason she chose to drop Rodham from her name.

posted on September 30th, 2008 at 10:45 am

5 On September 30th, 2008, Rachel said:

I don’t mind the Mrs. title, even as its not my preferred choice. Seriously, I even had the minister who married us announce us as Mr. Brandon X and Ms Rachel Richardson. However, like the Times, I think Ms should always be the default and Mrs. used only if a woman actively chooses it.

And I should add, it might not be a case where Palin prefers Ms., but that they’ve never corrected the Times. For all we know, she could personally prefer to be identified as Mrs. Palin.

posted on September 30th, 2008 at 10:47 am

6 On September 30th, 2008, Acceptable said:

Our style is to use “Ms.” unless a woman chooses to use “Mrs.” or “Miss.” That rule applies both to private individuals and to public figures.

Perhaps it’s not a case of Palin actively using Ms. but of her not actively using Mrs.?

posted on September 30th, 2008 at 10:48 am

7 On September 30th, 2008, BigLiberty said:

I agree with Lindsay’s #3 as the most likely situation. I’m not a big fan of the state of journalism today — watching ABC and then Fox News brings home the bias on both sides of the aisle, and the only current events show I can stomach is Washington Journal on CSPAN (where the moderators just moderate, pulling articles from all newspapers, and there are lines dedicated for Democrats, Republicans, and Independents). However, I don’t think this was a bias thing. It’s just way too opaque and subtle.

Personally, Ms as opposed to Mrs feels cold — like, “Haha, she’s too old to be called Miss but she can’t catcha man so she’s a Ms, hrr!” or something (I know there’s all sorts of pitfalls in this kind of thinking, but that’s merely what I think others may think of it). Really, certain forms of address evoke feelings and emotions, and there are ways of addressing people which can paint them in a particular light.

I don’t think NYT is doing this, but I do think it’s something that’s possible. Thanks for the great eye for detail, Rachel.

posted on September 30th, 2008 at 10:51 am

8 On September 30th, 2008, Rachel said:

I don’t think NYT is doing this, but I do think it’s something that’s possible.

I don’t think the Times is guilty of this either. But during the primaries, I noticed that one local news station continued to refer to Clinton as Hillary Rodham Clinton, even after the AP chose to refer to her as Hillary Clinton, since that is what she preferred. And yes, this news station otherwise follows AP style. I couldn’t help but notice the stubborn referral in using Clinton’s middle name each night I heard the newscaster discuss her.

posted on September 30th, 2008 at 10:57 am

9 On September 30th, 2008, the Lindsay of Babble-on said:

I couldn’t help but notice the stubborn referral in using Clinton’s middle name each night I heard the newscaster discuss her.

Kind of like how i know some people who (in verbal discussions on the matter) refer to one of the presidential hopefuls as “Barack Hussein Obama”, as if his middle name should be counted as a valid reason to automatically dismiss him.

posted on September 30th, 2008 at 11:17 am

10 On September 30th, 2008, Rachel said:

Exactly, Lindsay. One right-wing radio commentator in Cincinnati still does that, actually.

posted on September 30th, 2008 at 11:33 am

11 On September 30th, 2008, Twistie said:

You know, once upon a time, Miss and Mrs. didn’t have anything to do with marital status. I kind of wish we had simply gone back the the truly traditional use, which didn’t change until somewhere in the late eighteenth or early nineteenth century, if I recall correctly.

Originally Miss and Mrs. was just like Master and Mr. Girls would be ‘Miss’ whomever and boys ‘Master’ until their sixteenth birthday, whereupong they would become Mrs. and Mr. to indicate that they were considered adults socially. Nothing whatsoever to do with marriage.

Then again, Mistress was once a term of respect for the lady of the house.

Anyway, I never understood why no attempt was made to go back to the original meanings. Maybe it’s just because I’m a bit of a history geek. I agree the honorific should not indicate marital status…but I really, really hate how Ms. sounds, and didn’t think we needed a third term, anyway. And so it is that I am most likely to identify myself as Mrs., but keeping my own surname. I am a grown woman, I am the same person I was all along, I have not been adopted. It satisfies me.

I know I’ll never get a trend going, but over the years it’s the solution that I’ve become most contented with.

posted on September 30th, 2008 at 11:34 am

12 On September 30th, 2008, Pegkitty said:

Why do they not just refer to them as Sen. Clinton and Gov. Palin?

posted on September 30th, 2008 at 12:16 pm

13 On September 30th, 2008, Rachel said:

Peg — They do, but only on first mention. It would probably get repetitive if they always did this. Personally, I prefer the AP style of introducing officials as, say, President Bush and then referring to him as just Bush throughout the article.

posted on September 30th, 2008 at 12:31 pm

14 On September 30th, 2008, Stefanie said:

Twistie, I totally agree with you and would love to go back to this system. Not that I have anything against Ms, butI do feel that logically and historically, it would make more sense to just use the titles already in existence and refer to all adult women as Mrs regardless of marital status, making it the true equivalent of Mr. If stodgy people get confused initially, so be it.

posted on September 30th, 2008 at 12:55 pm

15 On September 30th, 2008, Rachel said:

Actually, the use of Ms dates back to the 1700′s, so its not exactly a new historical phenomenon. It just became more popular with the second-wave womens rights movement.

posted on September 30th, 2008 at 1:15 pm

16 On September 30th, 2008, Cute Bruiser said:

I don’t see what’s so ironic about it. Isn’t that point of feminism? To give women a choice? Just because someone prefers to go by Miss or Mrs. instead of Ms. does not make them a bad feminist. I think quite a few people would do well to go back and read the dictionary definition of feminism before commenting: http://tomatonation.com/?p=677

17 On September 30th, 2008, Rachel said:

Of course, feminism is about choice. I’m not condemning Clinton’s preference for Mrs. in the slightest. Rather, I find the discrepancies ironic because feminists have traditionally opted for the term Ms, and conservatives usually prefer the term Mrs. (if married). I find it ironic that the feminist Clinton tried to tone down her feminism, while the decidedly un-feminist Palin is seeking to beef up her feminism credentials. Nothing more.

posted on September 30th, 2008 at 1:48 pm

18 On September 30th, 2008, JM said:

If memory serves, I don’t think she used “Clinton” as her last name until Bill decided to run for governor of Arkansas. She then started using Rodham Clinton. I don’t know if she used Ms. or Mrs. then, but I do remember there being quite a hue and cry about the fact that she was such a radical feminist that she couldn’t just use her husband’s name when Bill ran for president in 1992. So I’d guess that — at some point — she/her people told the Times to refer to her as “Mrs. Clinton” to take that issue off the table.

Personally, I usually use Ms. when doing stuff that wouldn’t involve my husband (eg, for professional things) and Mrs. when doing stuff where he is involved (e.g., travelling). My old-fashioned mother addresses mail to me as Mrs. [husband's first and last name here] … and yes, I do use his last name. It grates on my ears when the DJs at weddings announce “Mr. and Mrs. John and Jane Doe.”

Pegkitty — I believe the Times indicated that they sometimes use Mr/Ms/Mrs in stories just to mix things up a little.

posted on September 30th, 2008 at 4:23 pm

19 On September 30th, 2008, Living400lbs said:

Despite knowing the past history of Miss and Mrs, I find I prefer to use Ms Lastname. Mrs Lastname just “isn’t right” to me because it’s my mother

I do answer to Mrs socially, but I prefer it to be “correct”, aka Mrs Hislastname.

I first became aware of “Ms” when I was entering high school. The school had gone to announcing all teachers by last name only, and so I would know if “Miss” or “Mrs” was appropriate, and the teachers themselves would often not specify. “Ms Lastname” quickly became my default

posted on September 30th, 2008 at 5:45 pm

20 On September 30th, 2008, Isabel said:

Originally Miss and Mrs. was just like Master and Mr. Girls would be ‘Miss’ whomever and boys ‘Master’ until their sixteenth birthday, whereupong they would become Mrs. and Mr. to indicate that they were considered adults socially.

In (at least some) Spanish-speaking countries this is basically the way it goes for women at least–you’re a senorita till you’re an adult, and then you’re a senora. (Spanish-speaking countries also habitually assign children a surname from each parent; they do this naming thing right as far as I’m concerned).

I can never tell when someone is speaking whether they’re saying Ms. or Miss–I pronounce them identically.

posted on September 30th, 2008 at 6:42 pm

21 On September 30th, 2008, Carmel said:

This question was answered by the NYTimes here. The relevant quote:

The answer is simple, and anything but sinister: Palin prefers to be called Ms., and Clinton prefers to be called Mrs. The Times, one of the last newspapers in the country to use courtesy titles, makes it a practice to ask women in the news how they would like to be referred to. Thus, the secretary of state is Ms. Rice, not Miss or Dr. According to Times style, official titles — senator, governor, secretary — are used interchangeably with courtesy titles, for variety.

In the case of Palin, she was a new face on the national political scene when John McCain chose her as his running mate. Shortly after the announcement rally, Michael Cooper, who covers the McCain campaign for The Times, sent a message to Palin’s spokeswoman, Maria Comella.

“Does she prefer Mrs. Or Ms.?” he asked. The one-word answer came back half an hour later: “Ms.”

posted on September 30th, 2008 at 9:26 pm

22 On September 30th, 2008, slythwolf said:

To be honest I don’t think the Ms./Mrs. debate should even be an issue for women who hold public office. These women should properly be referred to as Senator Clinton and Governor Palin.

posted on September 30th, 2008 at 10:20 pm

23 On October 2nd, 2008, guinea pig said:

We live in the South, and you will hear schoolchildren everywhere call *all* of their female teachers “Ms”/Mizzzzzz … Ms. lastname or Ms. firstname (i.e., Ms. Rachel). Most women here don’t seem to prefer “Mrs.” at all. it seems to be more polite and customary to use this address and more formal/not very genteel to call someone a “Mrs.” … as if one is not adapting to local custom/culture. It’s sort of a “hard” reference vs. “soft” and more genteel. I notice it most frequently with older women and black women of any age. I’m “not from here,” as they say here, but this is my impression/experience of the past seven years in Southern culture.

posted on October 2nd, 2008 at 6:25 am

24 On November 15th, 2009, Joe Ellis said:

Very interesting. I read a NYT article just a minute ago and in the same sentence they said “Mrs. Clinton” and “Ms. Palin”. I wondered why – a quick google returned your page.

posted on November 15th, 2009 at 8:48 pm