The-F-Word.org

Dan Savage: Pot, kettle, black

6th December 2007

Dan Savage: Pot, kettle, black

posted in Fat Bias, Pop Culture |

Dan Savage’s follow-up note last week promising to revisit the issue of a spouse who no longer finds his fat spouse attractive initially gave me cause for optimism. His advice, reaffirming spousal weight-gain, really disappointed me, but I had hoped readers would help him see the error of his ways and he’d set things right.

Wrong.

This week, Dan rants and raves about the perceived contradictions in reader reactions to a similar situation involving gay men - although, as Fillyjonk points out, people write in to get Dan’s opinion, not that of his denizen of readers.

Dan tries desperately to cling to his fast-crumbling pedestal of self-righteous narcissism. But in the end, his feelings on fat people are clear.

In response to a letter writer who asks what Dan would say had the spouse got breast cancer and had to have a mastectomy, Dan writes:

There’s a difference between eating yourself into unattractiveness—or dieting yourself into unattractiveness (some people are attracted to big folks, marry big folks, and want ‘em to stay big folks)—and suffering a disfiguring accident or boob-threatening illness. It’s the difference between something that happened to you and something you did to yourself, YMIOTO.

Again, the passage of time destroys us all. But you can’t sit on the couch stuffing Twinkies in your mouth and bitch about how shallow your partner is for not finding you attractive anymore because some people get cancer. Please.

So, there you have it. Fatness is something “you do to yourself.” Fatness is a “choice.”

Sound like deja vu? Oh, right. It’s the same thing the ex-gay movement folks say, too.

Ex-Gay Movement
*Edit*

Welcome to The-F-Word newcomers who’ve stumbled across my blog thanks to Dan’s mention of my entry in his blog here. You’re more than welcome to debate the issue, but do keep in mind, this is an eating disorders awareness blog. People who frequent the site either currently struggle with or are recovering from either an eating disorder or disordered thinking about food. Please be sensitive to this and exercise restraint in your comments.

And please don’t come here and tell me that you’ve lost weight by dieting and exercise, and that if you can do it, I can too. I’ve been there and done that and chances are, I’ve probably lost more weight than you in a shorter amount of time - 175 pounds in a year, to be precise. Of course, my diet had a name: anorexia and bulimia, and my willpower damn near killed me.

Just to clarify, I think the ex-gay movement is abhorrent. By no means do I agree with or endorse its views in that homosexuality is a “choice.” But nor do I think one’s body weight is always a “choice.” Yes, there is a correlation with what we eat and how much we weigh, but just as with height and eye, hair and skin color, there is no genetic one-size-fits-all.

Before you comment, I ask that you read Kate Harding’s primer on the myths of fatness in her article “But Don’t You Realize Fat is Unhealthy.” The diet industry is at at an all-time high, generating $55 billion a year in revenue. If fatness were a matter of simple “choice” and lifestyle changes, we’d be a nation full of thin people.

And last, I ask that you please be respectful of one another, and keep in mind my Comments Policy. Thanks, and welcome.

Click to Bookmark
This entry was posted on Thursday, December 6th, 2007 at 12:37 am and is filed under Fat Bias, Pop Culture. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. Responses are currently closed, but you can trackback from your own site.

There are currently 214 responses to “Dan Savage: Pot, kettle, black”

Why not let us know what you think by adding your own comment!

  1. 1 On December 6th, 2007, KarenElhyamNo Gravatar said:

    I hate this so much. He is saying one thing, and one thing only.

    “You fat people are choosing not to be attractive to me, also, you’ll die sooner, but that choice doesn’t impact me as much as the fact that I can’t look at you and get the hard on you owe me.”

    I just…I have always known Dan was a douchenozzle in the extreme, but this is just the nail in the coffin. I refuse to believe anything but pure malice could make a man that oblivious and stupid. Really? All fat people he’s ever known in his life are just Twinkie stuffing losers? Is he really that stupid, or does he only have skinny friends? Just…AUGH. I would send a Very Angry Letter, but when you’re just that completely moronic, what good would it do?

    posted on December 6th, 2007 at 1:14 am

  2. 2 On December 6th, 2007, FillyjonkNo Gravatar said:

    Oh, badass. I just finished a post on this column, and I was so busy rolling my eyes at the ridiculous premise for the whole thing that I didn’t even see the Twinkie comment. Glad you made such short work of it!

    And yeah, I think the “ex-gay” analogy needs to be made more often, because it’s pretty striking.

    (I’m sure if Dan showed up here, which he probably wouldn’t since he might catch fat, he’d point out that the letter-writer specified his wife’s eating habits. But of course, what we don’t know is whether his assessment is accurate, whether she had physical or psychological issues, whether she had an ED history, where she was wrt baseline when she met him… a whole host of complicated questions that Dan neatly sidestepped by handing the column off to a bunch of unpaid and unknowing lackeys.)

    posted on December 6th, 2007 at 1:32 am

  3. 3 On December 6th, 2007, rebeccaNo Gravatar said:

    sit on the couch stuffing Twinkies in your mouth

    wow. what a wildly creative, piercingly insightful analysis of fatness.

    i mean, it’s not like folks over at shapely prose were recently using the phrase “stuffing my face with donuts” as much as possible because it is the NUMBER ONE ICONIC MYTH ABOUT FATNESS to the point of absurdity.

    posted on December 6th, 2007 at 1:54 am

  4. 4 On December 6th, 2007, annahamNo Gravatar said:

    But you can’t sit on the couch stuffing Twinkies in your mouth and bitch about how shallow your partner is for not finding you attractive anymore because some people get cancer…

    I can’t be the only one who’s confused with the sudden connection between cancer and “bringing fatness on oneself.” Help plz?

    posted on December 6th, 2007 at 2:01 am

  5. 5 On December 6th, 2007, RachelNo Gravatar said:
    Annaham - Dan’s supremely cocky comments there are to letter writer YMIOTO. She asked Dan what he would say if one partner got breast cancer or such and had to have a mastectomy.

    Glad you made such short work of it!

    I just don’t have the time nor the effort to give Dan much more space or thought. Really, I have no clue how you and Kate manage to write such tomes.

    posted on December 6th, 2007 at 2:05 am

  6. 6 On December 6th, 2007, HeatherNo Gravatar said:

    Rachel, I’m impressed with those tomes over on Shapely Prose too! Those ladies are keeping the movement on its feet. Having said that, this post is perfectly-sized and says it all. Thanks for posting it.

    posted on December 6th, 2007 at 2:19 am

  7. 7 On December 6th, 2007, MeowserNo Gravatar said:

    My fantasy: Dan Savage gets locked in a closet with Harvey Fierstein until the guy who’s won a Tony and a Pulitzer feeds a giant clueburger to the one who hasn’t.

    posted on December 6th, 2007 at 2:25 am

  8. 8 On December 6th, 2007, BaconsmomNo Gravatar said:

    Did he break some sort of fat-hating code by going for Twinkies over donuts? Won’t he confuse all the sizeists by switching junk food so late in the game?

    posted on December 6th, 2007 at 2:55 am

  9. 9 On December 6th, 2007, SarahNo Gravatar said:

    Good to see Dan Savage perpetuating myths about fat people.

    How do you “eat yourself into unattractiveness” anyhow?
    I’m sure Savage would have a problem if a thin person with a fast metabolism did the same act, right?

    But yet, I can force myself onto a variety of failed diets and exercise programs for 15+ years, and still end up at 315 pounds. How does Savage explain that? What exactly is his remedy for me? Am I doomed just to be in the sphere of “unattractiveness” for the rest of my life then?

    Whatever. Fuck him.

    posted on December 6th, 2007 at 3:53 am

  10. 10 On December 6th, 2007, Rio IririNo Gravatar said:

    The ONLY thing I have ever liked that he wrote was the “Buy your daughter a dildo” column from way way back.

    A lot of what I’ve read by him has been fairly sanctimonious and shallow. I really don’t understand why people write to him, or why he’s even published–maybe he was shocking and controversial five years ago, but the one trick pony is long-dead and over-bludgeoned.

    posted on December 6th, 2007 at 4:31 am

  11. 11 On December 6th, 2007, SarahNo Gravatar said:

    Ah, I forgot to comment on the “eating Twinkies” thing:

    When I was a kid, I loved to swim. I didn’t have a pool, so I went to the local community one with friends.

    Every time that I went, some boy would come up to me in the pool and scream, “TWINKIE EATER!” Then he would run in terror from me, because I was a fat monster that had to be avoided.

    Yeah, guess I have to thank Savage for bringing up THAT memory. I think my Twinkie eating count stands at one or two for 25 years. I’d rather have a nice and prepared meal by my mom.

    posted on December 6th, 2007 at 6:06 am

  12. 12 On December 6th, 2007, MichelleNo Gravatar said:

    Quite frankly, the only reason he is wildly popular is because he says what he wants and not many column writers have that liberty. This column is a rush of truth about his character and it is a shame that he is feeding such prejudice to his readers as well. This story was written from the man’s point of view so of course we don’t know what he is saying about his wife’s eating habits is actually true.

    And I have to agree, what is the connection with Twinkies and cancer?

    posted on December 6th, 2007 at 9:37 am

  13. 13 On December 6th, 2007, JoGeekNo Gravatar said:

    I just finished blogging about the myth of fat as a choice instead of a biological reality, but the correlation with the gay rights movement illustrates it much better!

    Personally, I think twinkies are gross, like eating a packing peanut soaked in sugar water. The trouble is, I could provide an ass-hat like this with a full diary of everything I eat each day, and he’s so entrenched in his urban legends that he would simply accuse me of lying. (what? you can’t possibly weigh that much if you eat SALADS!!!) It’s so not worth anyone’s time to try and convince him!

    posted on December 6th, 2007 at 10:16 am

  14. 14 On December 6th, 2007, MrsDrCNo Gravatar said:

    Sound like deja vu? Oh, right. It’s the same thing the ex-gay movement folks say, too.”

    BRAVO! Way to shove a twinkie of his own words in his mouth!

    Nice post. Short, sweet, and to the point.

    posted on December 6th, 2007 at 10:34 am

  15. 15 On December 6th, 2007, RachelNo Gravatar said:
    There is no connection with Twinkies and cancer - I quoted Dan’s response to a letter writer who asked what Dan would say if the spouse had not gained weight, but had breast cancer and had to have a mastectomy.

    Sarah writes: Whatever Fuck him.

    Yep, pretty much sums it up for me, too!

    posted on December 6th, 2007 at 10:55 am

  16. 16 On December 6th, 2007, Kate HardingNo Gravatar said:

    sit on the couch stuffing Twinkies in your mouth

    wow. what a wildly creative, piercingly insightful analysis of fatness.

    Yeah, that’s why they pay him the big bucks, I guess.

    As I just said on Fillyjonk’s post, I really wish Shakesville.com were back up, so I could go back and link to the post I wrote about him, where he came along and sneered that it was absurd to act as if fat is “some kind of social justice issue.” That right there kinda tells me all I need to know.

    posted on December 6th, 2007 at 11:27 am

  17. 17 On December 6th, 2007, GeekGirlsRuleNo Gravatar said:

    I have had issues with Dan Savage for years. I find him unnecessarily mean most of the time, and a prick in general. I have never forgiven him for his “Bisexuals don’t really exist” stance of the early 90s, and I don’t care that he has since “recanted.”

    Also, when I was much younger, I wrote to him for advice on a really troubling problem (I was trying to figure out how and if I should tell my father I’d been raped as a teenager), and he was exceptionally cruel in his response, basically telling me I was stupid for even asking the question.

    I have no love for Mr. Dan Savage.

    posted on December 6th, 2007 at 12:49 pm

  18. 18 On December 6th, 2007, CherielabombeNo Gravatar said:

    I think his response was showed not just contempt for fat people, but his audience in general. Basically his answer to the uproar over his recent column was “It’s not my fault! Look what advice these idiots (ie my readers) came up with!”

    Nor was I too impressed with his ’statement of fact’ that women cannot cope with truths about their bodies if that means the truth is some part of them is unattractive. Please. Because we all know we ladies can only handle the shiny happy stuff, unlike those ’straight-talking men.’

    Funnily enough Dan Savage did quite an interesting piece for “This American Life” a while back on the prevalance in the late 60s and early 70s of TV portrayals of gay men as purse-toting sissies, and the impact that had on him as a kid. The gist was he knew he was gay too and he knew he would never be like this. Interesting that he would in spite of this peddle the tired old stereotype of the donut - sorry, twinkie - eating fatty.

    posted on December 6th, 2007 at 2:24 pm

  19. 19 On December 6th, 2007, CherielabombeNo Gravatar said:

    Sorry, I should clarify, I meant Dan Savage thinks women can’t handle the fact that someone else thinks some part of said woman’s body is unattractive.

    posted on December 6th, 2007 at 2:26 pm

  20. 20 On December 6th, 2007, maxNo Gravatar said:

    Since when has being overweight become anything but a lifestyle choice. I agree that some people have different body types and some people may be genetically predisposed to becoming overweight, but the truth of the matter is, your body needs a certain amount of calories to maintain weight, and thus a certain amount of calories to increase weight.
    I have two overweight sisters and overweight parents. I’ve heard the whole metabolism argument over and over. But the truth is, my sister would bitch an moan about her weight while sitting on her ass eating an entire package of Haggen Daz. Look, if you want to live that way, live that way. But don’t blame society if men (or women) don’t find you attractive.
    I’ve known some beautiful big people who were very accepting of their bigger bodies. They were beautiful because they were confident and ok with themselves. Not because of their body size.
    Live and let live. I wouldn’t date a fat man because that is not what I find attractive, the same is true that I don’t like guys with red hair and freckles or if they are under 6 feet tall. It is personal preference. So being overweight does limit your dating pool and if you are ok with that, then stop blaming society. Stating a preference is not being shallow.

    Blog author’s note:

    Max - you seemed to miss the entire point. And I’d also point you to this article, which sheds light on your whole “calories in/calories burned” theory.

    posted on December 6th, 2007 at 2:38 pm

  21. 21 On December 6th, 2007, visitorNo Gravatar said:

    Good god. Fatness may or may not be a choice, but whether it is or isn’t is entirely irrelevant to the intrinsic nature of homosexuality. It isn’t appropriate to impugn an entire class of people because you don’t like something Dan Savage said.

    I’m all for fat dignity, but please. Does anyone on this board really think that you become fat and that you become gay in even remotely similar ways? This is not an apt comparison, and it doesn’t lend you guys any additional credibility to make it.

    Blog author’s note:

    I don’t see where anyone is “impugning” a class of people. If you think by equating fat rights with gay rights is derogatory, I would encourage you to examine your own prejudices and bigotry. People do possess a genetic pre-disposition to body weight, just as one is born gay. Both groups are stigmatized and denied equal opportunities in scores of areas. Social justice doesn’t apply to only those who you agree with.

    posted on December 6th, 2007 at 2:45 pm

  22. 22 On December 6th, 2007, GitaiNo Gravatar said:

    Um, yeah, people who are fat, barring those that have particular, rare medical conditions, are choosing to be fat. When I got married, I gained fifty pounds. Why? I went from working out four times a week to two, and started eating more. I’ve lost twenty-five pounds this year, because I started eating less, and went back to exercising four times a week. See how that works?

    Editor’s Note:

    Gitai, by your own admission, your weight-gain was temporary. Perhaps the reason you lost weight is because it’s rarely possible for a naturally thin person to become fat, just as it is for a naturally fat person to become thin. See how that works?

    posted on December 6th, 2007 at 3:10 pm

  23. 23 On December 6th, 2007, AMBNo Gravatar said:

    In the vast majority of cases (VAST), weight gain is caused by one thing: consuming more calories than you’re burning. Any fat person (myself included) who deludes themselves into thinking otherwise is in serious denial.

    Since joining Weight Watchers I’ve lost over 30 pounds, and I did it by simply reducing portion sizes and cutting out sugary desserts.

    People aren’t born to be fat, and being fat is a great way to die young. Dan is right, you are wrong.

    Blog author’s note:

    Once again, the myth of calories in/calories burned is just that: a myth. People are born black. People are born with blue eyes. Suggesting there is a genetic one-size-fits-all is just plain ignorant.

    posted on December 6th, 2007 at 3:11 pm

  24. 24 On December 6th, 2007, Fer SureNo Gravatar said:

    You know, I kind of feel sorry for Dan Savage. He’s got this huge gaping blind spot when it comes to this aspect of human health. I mean, he’s falling on the wrong side of science here. Usually he is pretty tolerant of people, but during his crazy fat-hating moments he gets all curmudgeonly, tin-eared and bigoted and I can just picture his face getting all red, his eyes bugging out of his head and the spittle flying as he freaks out about the “fatties.” His writing in these instances does sound a lot like the anti-gay loonies. Just substitute fat for gay and there you have it. It’s rather amazing, and I have a hard time finding him credible on any subject because of it.

    posted on December 6th, 2007 at 3:12 pm

  25. 25 On December 6th, 2007, JamooNo Gravatar said:

    I lost 95 pounds and you can too. It took me a long time to figure out how, and I tried many different methods until I stumbled upon the magic “diet & exercise” formula. Sometimes one hour a day isn’t enough - I do three hours of exercise a day. Ultimately calories in vs. calories out is all it boils down to.

    With very few exceptions, obesity is no less a choice than smoking.

    Blog author’s note:

    Hey, I lost 175 pounds and you can too! It’s called an eating disorder! And let’s debunk the whole “calories in/calories burned” theory here and now.

    posted on December 6th, 2007 at 3:28 pm

  26. 26 On December 6th, 2007, anothecaNo Gravatar said:

    This is just amazing. All this outrage over something you chose to do to yourselves. Every bite you put in your mouth is your choice. Every moment you stay seated rather than active is your choice. All this outrage is just covering up the fact that you don’t have the self-discipline to put down your fork and go take a walk. There’s so much dogma, that it sounds like it’s own religion. Nearly everyone in my family is fat, and I gain weight as easily as breathing, but I do not whine about it. Instead, I choose to eat carefully, and choose to exercise like a madwoman, and guess what, I’m skinny! It’s like magic. Less food + more exercise = skinny! Mad at me? Go take a walk. Maybe join a gym. But don’t sit there being inactive and claim that you didn’t do this to yourself. Relationships are work, just like staying skinny is work. You have a responsibility to stay mentally and physically attractive for your partner. Dan is just telling it like it is. And don’t forget, ladies, bitterness is the least attractive emotion there is. So take a deep breath, and make today the day you start changing your life.

    Blog author’s note:

    Self-discipline? Really! Let’s talk self-discipline: Self-discipline is tearing your esophagus because you’ve eaten lettuce. Self-discipline is going 12 days subsisting on water alone. Self-discipline is forcing yourself to drink syrup of ipecac and then hobbling your way to the emergency room because it hasn’t come back up. You want to talk self-discipline; I have your self-discipline right here.

    The only outrage I see here is the amount of idiocy pouring from your fingertips.

    posted on December 6th, 2007 at 3:51 pm

  27. 27 On December 6th, 2007, soniaNo Gravatar said:

    Say what you will about Dan Savage, clearly his real advice to the letter writer was effective. He points out that he told the writer to ignore what appears in the column. It seems as though he follows the advice of my former mentor: creating controversy is the key to being successful (and famous). And it worked…look at all of you doing exactly what he wanted, paying him attention. Way to fall into his trap.

    And for the record, while not every fat person is fat from shoving twinkies in their faces, some people are. I was (except it was beer, not twinkies).

    posted on December 6th, 2007 at 4:00 pm

  28. 28 On December 6th, 2007, DaveNo Gravatar said:

    I suppose I’ll be the sole voice on this forum expressing support for Dan. Here’s the thing–Dan was talking about preventable weight gain. Suffice it to say that if my thin girlfriend were to gain 100 pounds, I would be concerned. I would be concerned because she works out 4-5 days a week, and while her diet is perhaps not the most healthful, it is hardly the sort of thing that would lead to rapid weight gain. But if my girlfriend stopped working out and began eating without regard to consequence then I would not be merely concerned–I would be dismayed.

    You see, in his column, Dan is not talking about people who have been overweight since childhood. He is discussing significant and preventable weight gain in adults (mid-late 20s and on)who were previously thin. It is true that one’s metabolism slows as one ages. But no one, save those suffering some medical condition which results in uncontrollable weight gain, has the right to claim that there is nothing they could have done about their weight gain unless they truly have been following a 4-6 day a week exercise regimen and been mindful of what they eat.

    There are plenty of people who, over the years, progressively put on weight because of lifestyle choices: poor diet (too many high calorie meals, drinking, and the like) and minimal exercise. That sort of weight gain is preventable, and that is what Dan is talking about. If the 25 year old you spends his or her time on the couch watching t.v. and eating junk, well, the 35 year old you should not be surprised about having gained some weight over the decade. I know plenty of fat people, and they eat far, far less than I do (I am fairly thin), but these people have always been fat, and thus I do not feel they deserve disparagement on this point. But I have no sympathy for fat people who got fat because of a lifestyle choice, and who then choose to complain about it.

    posted on December 6th, 2007 at 4:13 pm

  29. 29 On December 6th, 2007, MeowserNo Gravatar said:

    Geez, Rachel, Dan must have sicked all his fat hating trollbuddies on you. Oh, and Dave, Dan Savage has gone on record as saying he doesn’t give a shit if someone is “genetically fat,” they still have an obligation to eat as little and exercise as much as it takes to become thin, no matter how extreme that behavior amounts to. (He’d probably have been right there cheering Rachel on when she swallowed the ipecac.)

    posted on December 6th, 2007 at 4:29 pm

  30. 30 On December 6th, 2007, RachelNo Gravatar said:
    Here’s the thing–Dan was talking about preventable weight gain.

    I don’t think so, Dave. Apparently Dan has quite the history of being a fatphobe, regardless of the how or why of weight gain.

    And here’s another thing: How do we know this woman wasn’t thin until this point because she has engaged in a cycle of dieting/disordered behaviors? How do we know that this really isn’t her natural setpoint weight range? We don’t, and for Dan to casually make assumptions that she is now fat because she sits on the couch and stuffs Twinkies in her mouth is not only offensive, it’s potentially harmful.

    And once again, it sounds as if there is a pathological reason behind the wife’s weight gain, yet not once does Dan or the husband seem to consider this. Like you, if my naturally thin husband suddenly started to gain weight and exhibited other skin and dietary problems, I’d be making a doctor’s appointment for him, not toking it up and writing to an advice columnist.

    posted on December 6th, 2007 at 4:30 pm

  31. 31 On December 6th, 2007, Kate HardingNo Gravatar said:

    Does anyone on this board really think that you become fat and that you become gay in even remotely similar ways?

    Yes. They’re called genes.

    Nice work with the responses, Rachel. You’re a better woman than I am.

    posted on December 6th, 2007 at 4:39 pm

  32. 32 On December 6th, 2007, DaveNo Gravatar said:

    Rachel–I cannot and will not analyze whether or not Dan is a “fatphobe,” the degree to which he may or not be one, and for how long he may or may not have been one. What I am familiar with, and will discuss, is this particular issue.

    In this instance Dan is discussing what he calls a “partner’s premature and avoidable physical deterioration” and what I referenced as preventable weight gain.

    Now, you are correct. I know little detail about this woman. For all I know, she doesn’t really exist and Dan has fabricated the entire thing so as to have something to submit for his column. Nevertheless, assuming that Dan is being honest, he has been communicating with the gentleman writer both via e-mail and telephone. My guess is he knows substantially more about the circumstances than almost everyone except the husband.

    And by the way, my “naturally thin” mother gain a substantially amount of weight in her late 20s, and frankly I’m not surprised. You see, she did not start exercising until she was nearly 60, and I’ve witnessed her eating habits for most of my life. So yes, a person who is thin can gain quite a bit of weight, and keep it on.

    Finally, and somewhat unrelated to the rest of this post, it is possible to lose a lot of weight without having an eating disorder. My father lost what I can only guess was over 100 pounds in a little more than a year through daily exercise (walking) and careful–but not unhealthful–dieting.

    posted on December 6th, 2007 at 4:43 pm

  33. 33 On December 6th, 2007, RachelNo Gravatar said:
    Dave - Yes, it is possible to lose a drastic amount of weight sans an eating disorder. But there is a reason why 95 percent of dieters not only regain weight lost, but more, within 5 years. Obviously, if dieting worked and was effective, there’s be no need for a $55 billion-a-year industry and rising.

    And I might also add, my lowest weight required an anorexic lifestyle to maintain. And yet, my lowest weight was considered “average” for my height and weight. The point is, we all need to stop fighting our bodies and begin inhabiting them. Dan encourages the former, and ignores the latter.

    posted on December 6th, 2007 at 4:50 pm

  34. 34 On December 6th, 2007, anothecaNo Gravatar said:

    Dear blog author,

    Self destruction is not self discipline. The actions you described are not the actions of a smart, self-disciplined person. They are the actions of a desperate person. If you or anyone you know is acting like that, you need professional help immediately.

    Self-discipline is studying martial arts every day for twelve years, which I have done, and will continue to do the rest of my life. I attend over 12 hours of class most weeks, rain or shine, and if I’m sick, I drag myself down there to watch class anyway.

    Self-discipline is realizing that there is no quick fix for your problems, but being committed to fixing them anyway. I have a dear friend who has lost over 160 pounds by practicing karate at the same school I attend. Because of her weight, it was a much harder road for her than it was for me, but she attended class daily, and worked harder than any of us. She’s wearing a size 4 these days, and absolutely deserves the black belt she wears so proudly. That is self-discipline, and it humbles me every day. Hurting yourself is not self-discipline, it is a symptom of mental illness. If it is yourself that you’re describing, then I hope you can find help. My very best wishes.

    Editor’s Note:

    My eating disorder days are behind me, luckily. Thanks for the concern. My larger point, however, is to illustrate that battling our bodies, even taking extreme measures to do so, is often pointless, futile and can be dangerous. I lost weight, yes, but to maintain that “average” weight, I’d have to continue the dangerous and unhealthy practices I listed. We should encourage folks to eat right and exercise (if physically able-bodied) but we shouldn’t measure good healthy by the numbers on the scale.

    And your friend sounds as if she deserved the black belt, regardless whether she lost weight or not.

    posted on December 6th, 2007 at 4:51 pm

  35. 35 On December 6th, 2007, TerryNo Gravatar said:

    I followed this link from Savage’s page, and I think there’s a bit of willful obliviousness going on. The question in that column was not about how unattractive “fat people” are. It was about people who get overly fat.

    I completely agree with you here, the evidence suggests that it’s not “calories in, calories out.” (You all probably know about that study that showed that large people who lost a lot of weight and kept it off were essentially in a permanent state of starvation — it seems clear that people have a setpoint, and in a lot of people it’s set at a pretty high weight.)

    But Dan’s original writer was a guy married to a woman who had gained a lot of weight since their marriage. She was not an originally, or “naturally,” large person. She was (as I am), a person too heavy for her frame, who was not the person physically whom the guy had originally fallen for, and he no longer found her attractive. Sure, people’s bodies are going to change over time, but not taking proper care of one’s body was what the letter was about. It was not about the way this culture denies that fat people can be attractive — that’s another issue. I’m too fat, I don’t feel attractive, it’s not a happy thing. But if I were married to a guy who had found me really attractive when I weighed 70 pounds less, and that guy was unhappy, I’d understand why.

    posted on December 6th, 2007 at 4:52 pm

  36. 36 On December 6th, 2007, DancinghawkNo Gravatar said:

    Meowser — my theory is that it’s just one or two fat-hating buddies posting under different names — I’m thinking I can detect a similarity in patterns of speech. Maybe someone who knows how to track IP addresses can prove me wrong. ;)

    posted on December 6th, 2007 at 4:53 pm

  37. 37 On December 6th, 2007, CherielabombeNo Gravatar said:

    Jamoo, for real, 3 hours a day in the gym? All to “maintain” weight loss? Is that really what you want the rest of your life to be?

    I lost about the same amount of weight, my friend. And the only way I was able to keep it off (and I did keep it off for a long time) was, in the end, 2 hour sessions in the gym 5 days a week and absolute constant vigilance of everything I get in my mouth. Sometimes I would add an extra run during my lunch hour in the hopes I’d finally lose those stubborn 30 pounds. (See no matter how much I dieted and exercised, I never got below ‘overweight’ BMI-wise.)

    Do I miss being a size 12? (The smallest I could get to with that much effort involved) I suppose kind of. But I absolutely do not miss devoting that much of my life to maintaining my ‘ideal’ shape. It was a very lonely period in my life.

    posted on December 6th, 2007 at 4:53 pm

  38. 38 On December 6th, 2007, AvgWeightWomanNo Gravatar said:

    People who are gay are born gay and gay their entire lives, but not everyone who’s fat was born fat. The majority of them weren’t. Obesity rates are rising, not remaining still, which would be the case if genetics were the sole reason. Yes, people’s metabolisms are different, but if you are a thin person and you get married, it is not unreasonable for you spouse to expect you to not get fat (not remain thin, but not get fat, there *is* an in between, in case you’ve forgotten). The same goes for if you marry a fat person and are attracted to fat people, as Dan mentioned. If you marry a gay guy (or a straight guy) you’d expect him to stay that way too.
    The person who wrote to Dan stopped being attracted to his wife because she *got* fat, not because she started out fat. There could be a lot of reasons for why that happened. If it’s an undiagonosed medical condition, it’s something that she had no control over, if she stopped exercising, then she did to herself.
    All that article you keep citing says is that you have to carefully plan how exercise and diet will best help you lose fat and lose weight, because making ‘calories in’ less than ‘calories burned’ is exactly how you lose weight, you just need to know how to count the calories burned correctly. Yes, it’s harder for some people than others based on metabolism, but that’s the exception, not the rule.

    Editor’s Note

    Actually, obesity rates have leveled off. And the average increase is only 5 - 7 pounds. Our heights, too, have increased, thanks to more plentiful and better nutrition. And the article I referenced does a good job in illustrating when a calorie isn’t just a calorie; one’s weight is much more complex than a simple case of calories in/calories burned.

    It is reasonable to expect your spouse to remain healthy; it is unreasonable to expect them to remain thin, just as it is unreasonable to expect them to retain unwrinkled skin, a youthful appearance and to avoid hair loss. Health and weight can be related, but can also be mutually exclusive.

    posted on December 6th, 2007 at 4:53 pm

  39. 39 On December 6th, 2007, MaryaNo Gravatar said:

    “Self-discipline? Really! Let’s talk self-discipline: Self-discipline is tearing your esophagus because you’ve eaten lettuce. Self-discipline is going 12 days subsisting on water alone…”

    That’s not self-discipline, that’s being self-destructive. There is such a thing as being self-disciplined enough to exercise and eat a healthy diet without going overboard with it as you apparently did. I realize that it’s very difficult to lose weight and that some people do have naturally slower metabolisms than others, but it’s silly to equate “have the discipline to live a healthy, active life” with “you must develop an eating disorder now.”

    Editor’s Note:

    The larger point is: All the self-discipline in the world will lose in the face of genetics. If your body is meant to weigh within a certain weight range, it will do what it can to settle there, despite your best efforts. So, either you diet and obsess your entire life, or you learn to inhabit and celebrate the body you do have. Having done the former, my money’s on the latter.

    posted on December 6th, 2007 at 4:54 pm

  40. 40 On December 6th, 2007, TariNo Gravatar said:

    Wow, it’s troll-tastic up in here. I think I used up all my Sanity Watchers points in one sitting!

    I love all the science being referenced. It’s clear nobody’s trying to convince us that fat is unhealthy (not to mention curable!) via anecdotal evidence. What a relief!

    posted on December 6th, 2007 at 4:55 pm

  41. 41 On December 6th, 2007, LexyNo Gravatar said:

    Rachel, way to go calling out Dan. As we know fatness is not a “choice” and if you think a naturally thin person can make themselves fat you should read this:
    http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/05/08/healthscience/snfat.php?page=1
    (sorry I’m no good with links)

    posted on December 6th, 2007 at 5:00 pm

  42. 42 On December 6th, 2007, JamooNo Gravatar said:

    Cherielabombe -

    I didn’t say three hours a day in the gym. I work out three hours a day - one hour before work on my exercise bike reading or playing video games, an hour of weights with 3 friends around lunch, and an 8k or so run after work (or the bike again in the winter). I love hanging out with my friends, I enjoy video games, and I love the way a long run makes me feel. I enjoy all of these activities much more than I enjoy zoning out in front of the TV.

    I was 267 pounds. I’m 172 now. I’m healthy. I placed in the top 20% of a 25k trail in May. I don’t get winded climbing the stairs. I’m not lonely at all, I have a beautiful wife that I spend oodles of time with.

    posted on December 6th, 2007 at 5:02 pm

  43. 43 On December 6th, 2007, Upset about misogynyNo Gravatar said:

    I like Dan Savage. I read his columns, and most of the times he is funny. But his answers leave no doubt: he’s a misogynist. He doesn’t have sympathy for women of any shape or size. So his answer was not only offensive to fat people, but to women in general. If you choose to read his column, do so with a grain of salt. Be aware of his many limitations (he doesn’t seem to know anything about women, sexually or otherwise), and read it for the fun content. Just don’t expect any intelligent or minimally reasonable advice from him to women!

    posted on December 6th, 2007 at 5:03 pm

  44. 44 On December 6th, 2007, visitorNo Gravatar said:


    Good god. Fatness may or may not be a choice, but whether it is or isn’t is entirely irrelevant to the intrinsic nature of homosexuality. It isn’t appropriate to impugn an entire class of people because you don’t like something Dan Savage said.

    I’m all for fat dignity, but please. Does anyone on this board really think that you become fat and that you become gay in even remotely similar ways? This is not an apt comparison, and it doesn’t lend you guys any additional credibility to make it.

    Blog author’s note:

    I don’t see where anyone is “impugning” a class of people. If you think by equating fat rights with gay rights is derogatory, I would encourage you to examine your own prejudices and bigotry. People do possess a genetic pre-disposition to body weight, just as one is born gay. Both groups are stigmatized and denied equal opportunities in scores of areas. Social justice doesn’t apply to only those who you agree with.

    No. Frankly, blogauthor, you need to examine some of your own shit.

    I just read your amendment to the post, and I’m glad you acknowledge that the ex-gay groups are abhorrent. But by invoking them in the first place, you did EXACTLY what you accuse me of. It’s beyond the pale. I am a fat person. I understand the ramifications of that, and for other people who are similarly situated.

    But the injustice fat people face in our society is not as bad as the institutionalized oppression of gay people today and throughout our history. Fatness isn’t on the same level as the race/class/gender/sexuality continuum. Having people reject us and devalue us for our looks, which is what this whole stupid Dan Savage-related sniping is all about, is not something that justifies gay-baiting. It’s inappropriate to score points against an anti-fat Black writer by cheekily referring to white supremicist arguments, and what you did with the ex-gay vs Dan Savage post is also not appropriate.

    Also, Kate Harding: Fair point about both sexuality and weight being affected by genes. But I think that’s where the comparison ends- the chemical processes regulating body weight and the psychological phenomena governing sexuality really aren’t the same thing. That analogy is just a cheap trick, and the blogauthor (Rachel?) probably ought to apologize for utilizing it.

    Editor’s Note…again

    There is no gay-baiting here. There is, however, fat-bashing, and your comments only serve to underscore fat hatred and marginalization. Social injustice is social injustice - you can’t pick and choose whom it applies to. Fat people are regularly denied equal access in employment, education, access to public accommodations, adequate health care, adoption, and housing - as are gay people. I think it’s a tragedy when people profess to be all about equal rights, but yet pick and choose what groups are deserving of those rights.

    posted on December 6th, 2007 at 5:06 pm

  45. 45 On December 6th, 2007, DaveNo Gravatar said:

    1: Anotheca has it right. Read above.

    2: The $55 billion a year diet industry perpetuates because it feeds on a widespread ignorance of the principles of discipline and lifestyle Anotheca outlined. Most of the diet and exercise products and programs for sale are despicable.

    3: BMI is a horrible indicator of proper weight for a number of reasons. Among them, it does not take muscle mass into account. Using BMI as a measure, many athletes are overweight.

    I think there needs to be some education about what it actually takes to maintain a certain physical condition. For some people, what works (e.g., 2 hours of daily exercise) is easily incorporated into their life. For others–because of work or other time commitments–this sort of thing is impossible, and it then comes down to a choice between incorporating exercise or following a certain career. Ultimately, that is a very personal decision that turns on what a particular individual values more. Many make the calculation that exercise and careful dieting aren’t worth being thin, just as I make the choice that a marginal decrease in my cholesterol level isn’t worth giving up bacon. But I’m not going to complain if I have a heart attack because of my choice no more than I suffer complaints from overweight people about their condition assuming–and this is key–that it is otherwise preventable.

    posted on December 6th, 2007 at 5:07 pm

  46. 46 On December 6th, 2007, geokatgirlNo Gravatar said:

    On December 6th, 2007, Kate Harding said:

    Does anyone on this board really think that you become fat and that you become gay in even remotely similar ways?

    Yes. They’re called genes.
    ————————-
    THANK YOU ! I was wondering when someone was going to say the word ‘gene’ because it is obvious that some of the commenters arent getting it. Regardless of your twinkie consumption, your weight is pre-determined before you are born by GENES. I believe a doctor once said to me that genetic pre-disposition for height was 78% linked.. meaning that your genes say you are going to be 5 foot 7 BUT that hinges on things like good nutrition, and not walking around with a brick on your head. SO wanna know how genetically pre-disposed you are to your weight?
    79%
    makes you wanna rethink all those years in WW, doesnt it?
    Hasnt the gay population for years been flogging the ‘gay gene’? So to ME.. the comparison of gay vs fat from genes seems like a viable comparison.
    Just sayin…

    posted on December 6th, 2007 at 5:13 pm

  47. 47 On December 6th, 2007, BeckyNo Gravatar said:

    But Dan’s original writer was a guy married to a woman who had gained a lot of weight since their marriage. She was not an originally, or “naturally,” large person.

    Or maybe she is a naturally large person, who had temporarily lost weight due to dieting and now has gained it back. Happened to me, but since my fiance is not an asshole, he continued to love me and find me attractive after the weight came back.

    Yes, it’s harder for some people than others based on metabolism, but that’s the exception, not the rule.

    How on earth would you know whether it’s the exception or the rule? The fact that 90% of dieters gain the weight back would rather indicate that it’s being unable to keep weight off that is the rule.

    Since joining Weight Watchers I’ve lost over 30 pounds, and I did it by simply reducing portion sizes and cutting out sugary desserts.

    I’ve lost twenty-five pounds this year

    Both of you, please come back in 5 years and let us know how much of the weight you’ve kept off.

    posted on December 6th, 2007 at 5:13 pm

  48. 48 On December 6th, 2007, RachelNo Gravatar said:
    Jamoo - I encourage everyone who is physically able to adopt healthy eating and physical activity. But fitness and diet alone don’t always result in weight-loss. There’s a woman who regularly competes in triathlons and is much more active than I am - and yet she weighs a good 75 + pounds more than me.

    I’d also point you to studies that show overweight and fat seniors who are active live longer than average and even under-weight seniors who aren’t physically active.

    posted on December 6th, 2007 at 5:16 pm

  49. 49 On December 6th, 2007, KristinNo Gravatar said:

    Anatheca, I am so impressed by your dedication to martial arts, and so glad for your friend who lost weight doing it. Wanna compare stories? I led 30 day backpacking trips for youth at risk, hiking about 12 miles a day in mountains and living on granola. I would leave for my trips at 215 pounds…and return at 210. How much more dedication do you want? Or is that not discipline?

    posted on December 6th, 2007 at 5:21 pm

  50. 50 On December 6th, 2007, JaeNo Gravatar said:

    I love hanging out with my friends, I enjoy video games, and I love the way a long run makes me feel. I enjoy all of these activities much more than I enjoy zoning out in front of the TV.

    Me too! And guess what? Still fat :-D

    I eat a healthy, balanced diet. I don’t eat until I’m stuffed. I work out most every day. I have tried almost every diet out there. I’ve exercised until I was at the point of passing out. I’ve even had an eating disorder! But I have never been anything, but fat. At height of my disordered behavior, the best I could do was 188lbs. I have fat parents, and a couple of fat grandparents. I suspect that has something to do with it, but you know what? It doesn’t matter.

    At the end of the day, it doesn’t matter why I’m fat, why any of us are fat. We still deserve the respect and care that is supposed to be afforded to all human beings. I don’t care if you (and by you, I mean the collective you, not just the individual poster whose comment I quoted) think I chose this. I don’t care if you don’t want to have sex with me (chances are, I don’t want to have sex with you either!). I don’t even care if you like me. But we are all on this earth together, and we all deserve to be here and to be treated well during the time we have.

    posted on December 6th, 2007 at 5:23 pm

  51. 51 On December 6th, 2007, kitanaNo Gravatar said:

    “All the self-discipline in the world will lose in the face of genetics. If your body is meant to weigh within a certain weight range, it will do what it can to settle there, despite your best efforts.”

    This is simply not true. There are experiments where they gave supplements to pregnant fat mice (that have genes that predispose them to be fat) and their off springs are skinny (despite having the “fat” genes) whereas the fat mice that are not fed the supplements have fat off springs as well. In the last 20 years, the US has gone from something like an 8% obesity rate to a nearly 30% obesity rate and still growing. If only genetic plays the part then how do you explain that? Not unless 30% of the US population suddenly all had the same spontaneous mutation.

    Editor’s Note:

    It should be noted that the average increase in weight is 5 to 7 pounds. And is it really a case of the obesity rates increasing, or are the standards classifying obesity just being lowered so more people qualify as overweight and obese? The most recent lowering of BMI standards was just in the late 1990s, when 30 million Americans were turned overweight overnight.

    posted on December 6th, 2007 at 5:25 pm

  52. 52 On December 6th, 2007, BeckyNo Gravatar said:

    For some people, what works (e.g., 2 hours of daily exercise) is easily incorporated into their life. For others–because of work or other time commitments–this sort of thing is impossible,

    And if it’s impossible for your wife, is it fair for you to expect her to maintain her figure anyway? Or should she give up her other time commitments just so she can stay attractive for you?

    posted on December 6th, 2007 at 5:30 pm

  53. 53 On December 6th, 2007, vesta44No Gravatar said:

    I just love these people who say they have time to work out 3 hours a day, work a full-time job, and still spend time with their family and friends. Must be nice to be able to go without sleep in order to do all that and all the other day-to-day chores involved with living life.
    And, Dave, if you think weight gain is preventable, just be glad you don’t have the ability to get pregnant, which totally messes with one’s hormones and metabolism and everything else. I was considered overweight when I was a young adult (and I now don’t think I was, looking back at pictures of me then), and after 2 pregnancies, yeah, I’m fat. Diets didn’t work, surgery didn’t work, and I’m still fat even though I eat a wide variety of foods and do what exercise I can. Will I die early? Who knows? No guarantees for anyone how long they’ll live or what will kill them. Am I unattractive just because I’m fat? Not from what I’ve been told, by my husband and others (and my husband should know, he sees all of me and loves it all).
    The guy who wrote to Dan is looking for a way out, or a blessing for him to cheat on his wife now that they have a few problems that he’s not willing to work on with her.
    And Jamoo, I hope you’re able to keep on working out 3 hours a day for the rest of your life, but I’m betting that something will happen one of these days, and you’ll either have to cut back on working out, or have to quit altogether. Things like kids, accidents, injuries, you know, life in general.

    posted on December 6th, 2007 at 5:31 pm

  54. 54 On December 6th, 2007, KristinNo Gravatar said:

    Jae- There it is! No need to argue! Like Kate, I think, said this morning, “fat people are humans” or something close to that…

    posted on December 6th, 2007 at 5:32 pm

  55. 55 On December 6th, 2007, CherielabombeNo Gravatar said:

    Hey Jamoo, that’s cool. I am all for exercising for fun. I genuinely enjoy exercise and now I do it for fun and health rather than weight loss. I walk about an hour each day (I live in a city so I walk and take public transportation everywhere),ride my bike and go dancing regularly.

    I am all for excercising because you enjoy it and I think that that’s part of living a full and active life. The lonely part, to me, was devoting huge amounts of time on working out so I could stay an ‘ideal’ shape when I could’ve been out there living.

    posted on December 6th, 2007 at 5:32 pm

  56. 56 On December 6th, 2007, Upset about misogynyNo Gravatar said:

    Being prejudiced against fat people is the only socially acceptable (even encouraged!) form of prejudice today. Most intelligent people would feel strongly about racists and homophobes, but hating fat people is perfectly okay - and all in the name of science. Fat is automatically associated with disease, short life expectancy, being unhealthy… Most fat haters won’t say “you look horrible”, but rather “you are unhealthy, and if you don’t do something about it (getting thin), you’ll die soon”. Those people forget that, less than half a century ago, science was used to validate prejudice against blacks and gays. Now it’s being used against fat people. It’s that simple.

    posted on December 6th, 2007 at 5:36 pm

  57. 57 On December 6th, 2007, TerryNo Gravatar said:

    Becky, you illustrate my point about willful obliviousness. Granted, we don’t know anything about the letter writer’s wife, and her natural set point. But nobody here seems to want to acknowledge that there are a whole lot of people in this culture right now who are OVERLY fat - because they’re too sedentary, because they eat too much processed food with corn syrup in it, because they have issues they’re medicating with food instead of taking proper care of their bodies and dealing with their issues in a more healthy way (this last might set some people off, but I’m in this category, so I know whereof I speak).

    Sure, it’s not a great guy who focuses on his attraction to his partner rather than really considering what might be going on with her. But look at our population right now, compared to 60 or 70 years ago. We are, collectively, quite overweight. And a LOT of that is accounted for by the fact that we don’t move as much as we used to and we eat really unhealthily (as a group).

    Looking at the whole set of the American population, I think the odds are pretty good that the wife wasn’t exceptionally (for her set point) skinny at the time they met; rather, she is now exceptionally (for her set point) fat.

    Some of the people I really love are very big, have always been big, will always be big. I feel for them, living in this censorious culture. It’s brutal. But again, that’s not, I’m pretty certain, what the letter was about.

    posted on December 6th, 2007 at 5:37 pm

  58. 58 On December 6th, 2007, RachelNo Gravatar said:
    Terry, There are thin people who also engage in those kinds of activities. One’s weight is not always a litmus of their lifestyle. Focusing only on fat people simply places emphasis where it’s not always warranted, and ignores a segment of the population who also behaves and eats similarly.

    And, let me point out folks who have drunk the Obesity Epidemic Kool-Aid:

    The average increase in weight in the U.S. is 5 to 7 pounds. Obesity rates aren’t necessarily rising; the standards classifying obesity are continually being lowered so now more people qualify as overweight and obese. The most recent lowering of BMI standards, in essence, turned 30 million Americans overweight overnight.

    posted on December 6th, 2007 at 5:41 pm

  59. 59 On December 6th, 2007, TariNo Gravatar said:

    But nobody here seems to want to acknowledge that there are a whole lot of people in this culture right now who are OVERLY fat

    Hmmm……wonder whether I’m a good fatty or a bad fatty?!

    Seriously, Terry, who gets to draw that line? What’s it based on? And, assuming we accept that it’s real, what can be done about it (what with the diets not working and all)?

    posted on December 6th, 2007 at 5:44 pm

  60. 60 On December 6th, 2007, JoGeekNo Gravatar said:

    What a lovely collection of trolls you’ve collected, do you have the whole set yet, or do you need more box-tops? :-)

    I spent two years counting, weighing and analyzing calories/fat grams/fiber grams and working out two hours a day (swimming laps before work, weight training, cardio and/or pilates after). Guess what all that did for me? Well I got all the way down to a size 22 women’s, and all the way down to 270 pounds (I’m 6′2). I also had no life, because 8 hours working plus 8 hours sleeping plus 3 hours (including travel) working out plus 3 hours shopping for and preparing all those healthy meals left me exactly 2 hours a day plus weekends for cleaning, maintaining my house, dressing, undressing, showering, e-mail, etc. Do you think Dan Savage or his troll cronies would still call me a fat blob who just needed a little discipline?

    I’m sorry, at some point you have to look at the research and realize that outside 3-5 1/2 hour walks each day, additional workouts don’t necessarily improve your health or guarantee you’ll live longer. Neither does being fat mean you’re unhealthy or that your life will be shorter. If you like to work out and consider that your hobby, groovy for you. But don’t try to marginalize the rest of us to justify how you spend your time. If you honestly feel as if you need to control your life to the extent of obsessive exercise, categorizing your food and creating “rituals” around eating such as careful measuring, not eating when you’re hungry, eating fewer calories than your body needs, you should really talk to a counselor about the possibility that you have an eating disorder.

    If you marry someone, you should consider whether you’re marrying them or their body. The fact is that women naturally gain weight past their 30’s. Maybe it’s because of the hormonal and metabolic changes in their bodies that cause them to process food differently. Studies have shown that it’s protective, as in the studies that show that fat patients are more likely to survive everything from surgery to heart attacks. The fact is that the person you marry has a good chance of becoming old, wrinkly, bald, fat, varicosed and otherwise less Hollywood at some point in your relationship. It’s inevitable, and expecting anything else is idiotic. If you’ve spent the preceeding years reading, or talking, or generally living instead of exercising, you may actually have something to talk about when you get old. You know..like conversation? Spending time? Being friends with your spouse instead of considering them a live-in prostitute? sheesh.

    Sorry about the book :-)

    posted on December 6th, 2007 at 5:46 pm

  61. 61 On December 6th, 2007, BeckyNo Gravatar said:

    Terry, I know of which I speak too. When I met my fiance, I had just lost 30 pounds (due to stress and depression rather than dieting). I’ve since gained it back (plus 10 more from the bounce back effect). If my fiance was a less accepting person, he could be the one writing to advice columnists about how I’ve let myself go, even though that is not the case. Lots of women spend their lives in a yo-yo weight cycle, losing weight, gaining it back, over and over again. And their self-esteem cycles too, feeling good at their low weights, and bad at their high weights. So they’re most likely to meet a partner at their low weights, and then when they eventually gain it back… well he has the choice of whether to accept her how she is or write into an advice columnist bitching about the fact that she’s let herself go.

    posted on December 6th, 2007 at 5:51 pm

  62. 62 On December 6th, 2007, JenniferNo Gravatar said:

    I like Dan; I think he’s often very sensitive to people regarding their sex issues. However, sometimes he’s right, and sometimes he’s wrong. I think he doesn’t get it about how troubled many of us women are about size: the pressure we feel, the self-loathing, the unwelcome comments from others.

    And, in the interest of full disclosure, I’d eat Twinkies, Ho-Ho’s, King Dongs, cupcakes, and every other kind of Hostess crap that exists if I had a different metabolism. I’m not fat now, but I’m not the skinny thing I was in my twenties, either. And I miss that freedom…that blithe sense of fitting the ideal. But now I’m trying to accept the changes that come with age instead of driving myself nuts keeping slim in my forties.

    Weight is political for women — I think Dan just doesn’t get that. Period.

    posted on December 6th, 2007 at 5:51 pm

  63. 63 On December 6th, 2007, downtownvenusNo Gravatar said:

    Anoteca

    Self destruction is not self discipline. The actions you described are not the actions of a smart, self-disciplined person. They are the actions of a desperate person.

    Oh nutz! Now we know disordered eaters couldn’t possibly change their self-destructive behaviour because they aren’t disciplined enough to have got there in the first place, nor intelligent enough to see their way out of it.

    Self-discipline is studying martial arts every day for twelve years, which I have done, and will continue to do the rest of my life. I attend over 12 hours of class most weeks, rain or shine, and if I’m sick, I drag myself down there to watch class anyway.

    This is not self-discipline, this is “I will do this or I am a bad person” - and that’s the different to disordered thinking, how? Discipline is obedience to the method of teaching, the teacher, and consistency of performance. That’s how you earn the belts my friend. And going to class - even as a spectator - while sick is NOT cool. You do know how germs work, right?

    I have a dear friend who has lost over 160 pounds by practicing karate at the same school I attend. Because of her weight, it was a much harder road for her than it was for me…..She’s wearing a size 4 these days, and absolutely deserves the black belt she wears so proudly.

    There is no connection to be made between achieving the black belt and dropping size. My god, imagine the incomprehension if she hadn’t lost the weight but still got the belt!! All that happened was that she got really good at karate despite having a body size (and perceived level of fitness and ability) that at the first class caused people doubt she would be successful at karate. That’s why you feel so humble. Not because she lost weight, but because she proved you wrong. It is a shame you haven’t seen the lesson within that situation.

    So many trolls think that fat people are lazy slobs who can’t do anything to save themselves and that their life’s work is to hit 500lbs. You can shove anedotes down our throats long enough to halt the conveyor belt of donuts but really, if any of those fast or slow fixes for weight loss actually worked and it WAS just a matter of personal choice, do you think we would stay fat to enjoy the barrage of hate and discrimination? I don’t know about you all, but I’d really miss all the name-calling and social invisibility I currently enjoy. Who’d give that up? *headdesk*

    Terry

    The question in that column was not about how unattractive “fat people” are. It was about people who get overly fat

    ….and how unattractive they become to their partners. What was your point, exactly?

    The only thing wrong with people ‘who are unnecessarily overweight/who were thin but now are fat’ is that some other people don’t like how they look. Frankly, if I were the overweight one I want to hear someone say they didn’t want to be with me to know how superficial they are and dump their stupid ass. How could I dare have a child and expect my partner to continue to want to be with me if being a new mother meant I had no time to get back to the gym and drop the baby weight? How could I suffer a debiliatating injury and be laid up in bed and expect them to still hang around while on the long road of recovery? And I’m sure they’d be okay with me dumping them for gaining unnecessary pounds because it’s pretty much the ‘Get Out of Jail Free’ card, right?

    People who insist that something is unattractive about YOU because THEY don’t like the look of your body after they sign on for the relationship need a swift coc*kpunch.

    posted on December 6th, 2007 at 5:52 pm

  64. 64 On December 6th, 2007, twilightriverNo Gravatar said:

    I study martial arts and am therefore an expert on self-discipline and know that anybody who gains weight is undisciplined, lazy, and doing a disservice to their spouse.

    I am a fat person and therefore know that every other person who gains a large amount of weight is lazy and not taking care of themselves.

    I have this wonderful anecdote about a family member who lost a lot of weight and therefore know that any person who exercises more and eats les will gain weight.

    I am an expert in weight loss because I have eyes and my eyes tell me that fat people are miserable and skinny people are happy. So, if everybody was skinny, nobody would be unhappy or unhealthy.

    Wow, no wonder these people think Dan is brilliant. If I didn’t know the difference between a well-reasoned position and anecdotal evidence, I’d probably think he was brilliant too.

    posted on December 6th, 2007 at 5:53 pm

  65. 65 On December 6th, 2007, DaveNo Gravatar said:

    Becky–If my girlfriend did not have time to exercise enough to stay thin, I would hope that she would at least eat reasonably so as to moderate any weight gain. But I have told her–repeatedly–that she needn’t worry so much about her weight (she is quite concerned about it) because I am certain that I will still find her irresistable even were she to gain 50 pounds. 100 pounds, maybe not; harsh, perhaps, but honest, and I think that as she weighs 130 pounds, she could only nearly double her weight through horrible choices or a medical condition. In the latter instance, I might be less attracted to the 230 pound version of her, but not resentful.

    As for pregnancy, well, she would rather die (quite literally) than give birth, so pregnancy is not a factor for all women. Its not the fear of weight gain; she just hates kids.

    Oh, and Vesta44, I worked full time while going to school full time and still had time for nearly 2 hours of daily exercise. How? I rode my bike 40 minutes to and from school, and exercised a bit at home as well, and on days that I did not have classes, I stepped up the exercise a bit at home. The bike commute was not as mentally painful as exercise can be, as its primary purpose was transportation, not fitness.

    posted on December 6th, 2007 at 5:53 pm

  66. 66 On December 6th, 2007, CherielabombeNo Gravatar said:

    Actually as a fat person I think I do eat a lot. I never skip meals (unlike my naturally thin boyfriend who is one of those people who forget to eat - he and I have been eating the same foods for the past 5 years and he has stayed thin and I have stayed fat, btw), I snack when I am hungry and I will have a cookie after dinner.

    You are welcome to hold that up as “proof” as to why I am fat but I know there plenty of skinny people who do the same exact thing. I have a friend who I’ve known since we were 8 years old. When we met, she was fat and I was skinny.

    She lived on a diet of gummi bears, slurpees, cheetos and peanut butter and fluff sandwiches. I liked some of those things (cheetos!) but not all of them. Her mom was always taking us out to Dunkin Donuts or giving us money to go get candy.

    My mom cooked us lots of homemade meals and refused to let us have sugary cereals for breakfast unless we were on vacation or it was someone’s birthday. Both my friend and I spent literally hours watching MTV together or laying on the floor of my room drawing.

    Guess which one of us got sent to Weight Watchers as a kid? And guess which one of us is still thin? (Though to be fair she eats a lot better these days!)

    But of course, none of this matters. That’s just me and my friend. It’s just my story and the story of someone I know and I can’t really offer that up as proof.

    Which brings me to my second point: Just because your friend is fat and all they eat is junk or your coworker is fat and always eats a fatty lunch or just because your fat sister eats a tub of Haegen Dasz in one sitting (oh and we know no thin people do that) does not mean you have proof that the fatties are fat because they gorge on twinkies while lying slothlike in front of the TV, while all the skinnies are out hiking and eating celery sticks. Sorry, doesn’t work that way.

    It’s only proof that SOME fatties like fatty food and eat a lot of it and don’t move much, and others don’t eat that much, and other fatties eat really healthfully and work out a lot. Hate to break it to you but that’s also how skinny folks eat too, and you are deluding yourself if you think differently.

    And don’t offer up your recent weight loss as proof. Cuz, hate to break it to you, most people who lose weight gain it back. Yes, you may be different. But let’s talk in 5 years and see if you are.

    posted on December 6th, 2007 at 5:55 pm

  67. 67 On December 6th, 2007, SarahNo Gravatar said:

    Jae, you said it the best with your last paragraph. Everybody should read it:

    “We still deserve the respect and care that is supposed to be afforded to all human beings.”

    “But we are all on this earth together, and we all deserve to be here and to be treated well during the time we have.”

    True enough. We are all individuals as deserve to be treated as such.

    Dan Savage, quite frankly, is a rotten person. But that doesn’t mean I’ll go and vote yes on every gay-bashing proposal that comes up around election time. I believe every person deserves respect - under law and in society. It’s too bad Savage and his readers can’t reciprocate when it comes to fat people. I don’t buy into all the myths surrounding “the gay” people, so why do you continue to buy into all the myths about fat people? Please enlighten yourselves, for the betterment of humanity.

    I’m not asking you to “accept” me or be my friend. Just let me be and I’ll do the same for you. I’ve got friends that aren’t judgmental to being with, and I wouldn’t want friends with such a negative and hateful mindset anyway!

    I have a great quality of life, despite being “morbidly” obese. I don’t sit around and eat donuts all day. I eat a variety of foods, and I prefer meals that are cooked at home via going out. As mentioned before, I love to swim. I also love to walk and sometimes dance. I’ve spent a NUMBER of years on “diets,” all to no avail. At best, I would lose ten or fifteen pounds. To achieve this, I basically had to eat next to nothing and exercise like a madwoman. Sorry, but how is that a quality life? It’s not. I’m MUCH happier now than I have ever been.

    I’ve worked as a medical receptionist (imagine that!) for several years, and have seen that disease ravages ALL people, not just the fatties. Thin people suffer from the same ailments as fat people. A healthy diet and moderate exercise is good advice for ALL people, don’t you think? Why only pick on the fat people? What about the thin people who don’t take care of themselves? Basically, you are making a shallow judgment of a person because of their weight.

    I know the stereotype of the rejected fat person is amusing to the ignorant, but it has no truth to it. Yes - I live, laugh, AND love. And I am NOT going to stop because of misguided prejudice directed towards me or others of my size. We are NOT going anywhere and I am not going to let you push me out of society.

    posted on December 6th, 2007 at 5:56 pm

  68. 68 On December 6th, 2007, JaeNo Gravatar said:

    Weight is political for women

    Well put.

    posted on December 6th, 2007 at 5:58 pm

  69. 69 On December 6th, 2007, ShinobiNo Gravatar said:

    I have to seriously wonder when people fit all this excersizing into their day? I mean, 2 hours a day? really?

    Personally I am at the office for about 9 hours a day, plus a 45 minute commute so, that knocks out about 10.5 hours. Plus I like sleep, I have to get at least 8 hours so I’m useless so now we’re at 18.5 hours. Which leaves mea bout 3.5 hours a day to do what I want with. So now I”m supposed to spend 2 hours or 57% of my freetime jumping up and down, or running, or lifting heavy things just so other people can find me attractive and wont think I’m lazy?

    Uhm… Gee… Pass. I’d way rather do things I actually enjoy. Sorry if people who think I should be skinny find that offensive. But my time on this earth is limited and I’m not going to spend it being miserable just so other people will approve of me.

    posted on December 6th, 2007 at 5:59 pm

  70. 70 On December 6th, 2007, SarahNo Gravatar said:

    Ah, I forgot to add:

    Should fat people who are sedentary be treated with different standards than “good” fat people? Short answer - no. Goodness knows some of the posters here would never apply those standards to a thin person, because thin always equals HEALTH! Oh wait, not.

    posted on December 6th, 2007 at 6:00 pm

  71. 71 On December 6th, 2007, LexyNo Gravatar said:

    Oh, I got another link for the “if you lose weight you’ll be healthier, don’t you want to be healthier” choir.
    weight loss risks

    That one’s about the health risks associated with yo-yo dieting (the most common type, since 90-95% of dieters gain all the weight back)

    posted on December 6th, 2007 at 6:02 pm